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Miss Mally
07-03-2004, 02:51 PM
Jail Denies Inmate Baptism

Once in a while, a story comes along that defies classification and provokes debate across several controversial topics. Such is the case with the tale of Ramzee Johnson, inmate at the Lerdo Jail in Bakersfield, California. Imprisoned for a gang related murder, Johnson recently began studying the bible with Minister David Garner of the Oildale Church of Christ and has since made the personal decision to repent of his sins and be baptized. The problem is the jail won’t allow the baptism.


http://www.rightnation.us/

Goalie
07-03-2004, 03:39 PM
A man, dying of thirst, is wandering, hopelessly lost in the desert. He comes to the realization that he won't leave the desert alive, and with his last dying breath, he renounces his sins, asks God for forgiveness, and acknowledges Jesus Christ as his personal Savior. He then dies.

Will this man go to Hell because there was no water available to baptize him? The prisoner's preacher claims that the prisoner will go to Hell because the jail refuses to allow his baptism by water, apparently for security reasons, since the prisoner is a gang murderer.

Personally, I think the preacher is all wet! :)

Miss Mally
07-03-2004, 03:48 PM
Well...of course I disagree with you Goalie....if the preacher is all wet...then so is the bible. As many verses in the Bible clearly state that part of salvation is being buried in baptism with Christ.

I didn't really post this to get into a debate over whether baptism is needed....I just thought it very odd...that in a state where inmates get college educations, TV, weight rooms and yes...organ transplants....no one will allow this man some water to be baptized in. Priorities in Ca are warped to say the least.

Goalie
07-03-2004, 05:37 PM
Luke, Chapter 23
"39: And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40: But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41: And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42: And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43: And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. "

Was the thief (malefactor) baptized with water?

MiraculousMutha
07-03-2004, 06:20 PM
A gang related murderer? Tell him to say hi to tricky dick for us.

Miss Mally
07-03-2004, 11:12 PM
Luke, Chapter 23
"39: And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40: But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41: And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42: And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43: And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. "

Was the thief (malefactor) baptized with water?

First of all, this was before the establishment of the Church...before Christ had died for our sins.

Second...who is to say that this theif had not been baptized? He could have very well been baptized by Jesus himself sometime in the prior three years.

Third

Acts 2:37-38

Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Anonymous
07-04-2004, 12:38 AM
I won't get into wether or not they should allow his Baptism, but my thought is.... isn't that something he should have thought about before he took part in a murder?????? :?:

Miss Mally
07-04-2004, 12:55 AM
I won't get into wether or not they should allow his Baptism, but my thought is.... isn't that something he should have thought about before he took part in a murder?????? :?:

Perhaps this young man had never been taught about Jesus before.

All sins are equal in God's eyes....by what you are saying....no one should have a chance for redemption...for we have all sinned.

I don't have a problem with the young man staying in jail the rest of his life...I just think even in jail he should have the oportunity to be baptized if he wishes.

CuriousGal
07-04-2004, 01:47 AM
A man, dying of thirst, is wandering, hopelessly lost in the desert. He comes to the realization that he won't leave the desert alive, and with his last dying breath, he renounces his sins, asks God for forgiveness, and acknowledges Jesus Christ as his personal Savior. He then dies.

Will this man go to Hell because there was no water available to baptize him? The prisoner's preacher claims that the prisoner will go to Hell because the jail refuses to allow his baptism by water, apparently for security reasons, since the prisoner is a gang murderer.

Personally, I think the preacher is all wet! :)

I've got to say that I firmly believe that the man you describe in this hypothetical situation will go to heaven. You've stated that he renounced his sins, asked God for forgiveness (God always forgives if the request for forgiveness is sincere) and acknowledged Jesus Christ as his personal Savior. I believe that it's quite possible for a person to learn about all of these things in his/her life but not DO these things until he/she knows that he/she is sincere. As a matter of fact, we should not do any of these things until we truly believe and we are sincere! I do believe that God sees into our hearts and our minds and He sees the truth. You speak of a man who is dying in the desert and finally realizes what he SINCERELY WANTS and NEEDS to do. I believe that God sees that and accepts that.

I've read the article that Mally posted and it says that Johnson, after studying the bible with Minister David Garner of the Oildale Church of Christ, "has since made the personal decision to repent of his sins and be baptized." According to this article, only the minister has stated that Johnson will go to hell if he isn't baptized. What does the inmate actually want here? It shows a man who has come to the point of sincerely accepting God and Jesus Christ. I, for one, am thrilled that this man has done this but I do understand what the writer of the article has stated. Those who break the laws of this land oftentimes go to jail and/or prison. They give up the right to move around freely because they broke the law. Our federal, state, county and city penal systems do NOT take away the religious rights of inmates. No entity on earth can infringe upon one's relationship with God. I do not believe that one has to be baptized so that God will accept one into heaven. Every human being on earth is God's child and through grace He will accept any who accept Him, His son and who are sincerely repentant of his/her sins. The writer of the article stated that if Johnson is allowed to be baptized, what will happen when "the inevitable Islamic death row inmate demand[s] his religiously decreed pilgrimage to Mecca?" We are a nation that does its dead level best to be fair (far more so than any other nation on earth) and even though Garner has proposed ways for Johnson to be baptized that would be secure, a precedent would be set and how in the world do you propose to fulfill a death-row Muslim's request for his/her journey to Mecca?

My point is this. Our penal system does NOT infringe on anyone's relationship with God, Allah, etc. It simply can't because unless mind-altering drugs are used, that relationship is there. If Johnson dies in jail, God knows Johnson's heart and mind. I don't believe that God would turn His back on him because he wasn't submerged in water and baptized by an earthly man.

All of this, of course, is just my honest opinion but it is one of my strongest honest opinions,

CG

CuriousGal
07-04-2004, 01:52 AM
Perhaps this young man had never been taught about Jesus before.

All sins are equal in God's eyes....by what you are saying....no one should have a chance for redemption...for we have all sinned.

I don't have a problem with the young man staying in jail the rest of his life...I just think even in jail he should have the oportunity to be baptized if he wishes.

According to the article you posted, should the Muslim be allowed his pilgrimage to Mecca? That's an important element to the Muslim faith. That involves a LOT more than a simple baptism yet it's key to the Muslim faith. What are your thoughts?

CG

CuriousGal
07-04-2004, 02:05 AM
I won't get into wether or not they should allow his Baptism, but my thought is.... isn't that something he should have thought about before he took part in a murder?????? :?:

I understand your point but I also realize that people aren't always good and they can pull themselves up and become better after they commit horrendous crimes. I'm not one to say that "Oh, this person had a horrible home life growing up so it's understandable that he gunned down so-and-so......." I don't care what the homelife was...murder is unacceptable.

I find it entirely believable that Mr. Johnson has changed his beliefs, although I know that a lot of jail-house conversions happen and a LOT of them are false. It's obvious that he had no problem taking part in a murder. We've heard that he wants to be baptized and has accepted Christ. That happens so often in jail/prison and we just have to hope that it's for real. Don't waste your time asking the question you asked because you'll never find a satisfactory answer. We all have to pray for those who have killed and later wised up and went to God. They need our prayers so much so that they stay on the course that is good and not destructive.

JMHO,

CG

Docmom
07-04-2004, 11:58 AM
Several prisons in the state of Texas denies any baptism Mally. Dawson State Jail in Dallas does not allow it. Most prisons will not even allow the Church of Christ Ministers to enter into the prisons and do visitations. It is a sad world Mally when The Word of Jesus cannot enter into our prisons.

Miss Mally
07-04-2004, 11:58 AM
Perhaps this young man had never been taught about Jesus before.

All sins are equal in God's eyes....by what you are saying....no one should have a chance for redemption...for we have all sinned.

I don't have a problem with the young man staying in jail the rest of his life...I just think even in jail he should have the oportunity to be baptized if he wishes.

According to the article you posted, should the Muslim be allowed his pilgrimage to Mecca? That's an important element to the Muslim faith. That involves a LOT more than a simple baptism yet it's key to the Muslim faith. What are your thoughts?

CG

I have not said this man should be allowed to leave the jail. This is an act that is possible to do right there.

Prisoners can have tv, they can have weight rooms and game rooms...but they can't have water brought in to be baptized?

Prisoners are allowed to be baptized across this nation....happens all the time. This is one wardens decision.

Goalie
07-04-2004, 02:24 PM
Acts 2:37-38

Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

If there is a difference between what Jesus says and what Peter says, I'll take Jesus' word for it. :)

Miss Mally
07-04-2004, 02:51 PM
Welll...since Peter was just preaching what Jesus said to...I think they are both in line.

I am glad though that you believe in doing what Jesus says.

Mark 15:15-16 He said to them,"Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Jesus said it too. It was his command after he had risen from the dead. All things changed when he gave his life for our sins.

Goalie
07-04-2004, 09:13 PM
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.


Please note the deliberate omission of "baptized" from the second portion of the sentence. Why does it not read, "...but whoever is not baptized will be condemned"?

Miss Mally
07-04-2004, 09:37 PM
Well...Why in the world would someone get baptized if they didn't believe? There was no need to include it...as belief must come before baptism...if there is not belief...there can not be baptism.

Since there was no need to take it past belief on the condemnation...Jesus didn't. But...he did include baptism as a qualifier for salvation. His words.

Miss Mally
07-05-2004, 11:21 AM
another thought...if belief was all that was needed Goalie...even the demons would get to heaven...for they believe that Christ is the Son of God.

Gearldean
07-05-2004, 11:27 AM
another thought...if belief was all that was needed Goalie...even the demons would get to heaven...for they believe that Christ is the Son of God.
They may believe but do they accept?

Miss Mally
07-05-2004, 11:58 AM
Well...they called him the Son of God and asked why he tortured them prior to the appointed time. I would call that acceptance of who he is...even though they chose not to except his commandments and will.

Gearldean
07-05-2004, 12:29 PM
Well...they called him the Son of God and asked why he tortured them prior to the appointed time. I would call that acceptance of who he is...even though they chose not to except his commandments and will.
They accepted who is but they did not accept him.

Miss Mally
07-05-2004, 12:58 PM
Well...they called him the Son of God and asked why he tortured them prior to the appointed time. I would call that acceptance of who he is...even though they chose not to except his commandments and will.
They accepted who is but they did not accept him.

Okay...I guess I am lost...what is it that you are saying and how does it relate to Believe and be Baptized?

Gearldean
07-05-2004, 01:19 PM
Well...they called him the Son of God and asked why he tortured them prior to the appointed time. I would call that acceptance of who he is...even though they chose not to except his commandments and will.
They accepted who is but they did not accept him.

Okay...I guess I am lost...what is it that you are saying and how does it relate to Believe and be Baptized?
You're always lost! You just don't usually KNOW you're lost! :D What I meant was that you can believe something but not accept it as you're own. Had they chosen to accept HIM, they would be a part of his flock, wouldn't they? I just don't believe that babtism is a requirement for Heaven.

Miss Mally
07-05-2004, 01:41 PM
Well...they called him the Son of God and asked why he tortured them prior to the appointed time. I would call that acceptance of who he is...even though they chose not to except his commandments and will.
They accepted who is but they did not accept him.

Okay...I guess I am lost...what is it that you are saying and how does it relate to Believe and be Baptized?
You're always lost! You just don't usually KNOW you're lost! :D What I meant was that you can believe something but not accept it as you're own. Had they chosen to accept HIM, they would be a part of his flock, wouldn't they? I just don't believe that babtism is a requirement for Heaven.

In order to "put on Christ"...accept him that is...you must be buried with him in baptism according to the scriptures.

I think I will quote the one Art used earlier.

Galatians 3:26-29

You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for all who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves in Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ. 29 If you belong to Christ, the you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise;

Anonymous
07-05-2004, 03:23 PM
Well...they called him the Son of God and asked why he tortured them prior to the appointed time. I would call that acceptance of who he is...even though they chose not to except his commandments and will.
They accepted who is but they did not accept him.

Okay...I guess I am lost...what is it that you are saying and how does it relate to Believe and be Baptized?
You're always lost! You just don't usually KNOW you're lost! :D What I meant was that you can believe something but not accept it as you're own. Had they chosen to accept HIM, they would be a part of his flock, wouldn't they? I just don't believe that babtism is a requirement for Heaven.

You accept through faith that Jesus Christ died for your sins and make him Lord of your life. You are baptized as a sign that you have accepted him as your personal savior, but it's not a requirement.

Miss Mally
07-05-2004, 03:30 PM
Mark 15:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Does this not sound like a commandment.

Also...Jesus was baptize and we are to follow his example. Following his example is a commandment. Jesus baptized people. Do you think he told them they didn't have to? Why do it at all if it is not a part of salvation?

Why did God send John the Baptist to prepare the way...and why did John tell people he was baptizing them for remission of sins? Why didn't he tell them that excepting Christ would remove those sins if this was the case?

Why did Jesus go get baptized by John....he said it is to fullfil all righteousness. Math 3:15

jenfrog81
07-05-2004, 03:35 PM
I wonder if that goes for all the Babies that Die when they are first Born . If they are not baptized will they also be condemned.I always Heard Just Repent for your Sins you Shall be Saved ........I don't know the Bible all that Much but this is only what I have heard in church.

Miss Mally
07-05-2004, 03:38 PM
I wonder if that goes for all the Babies that Die when they are first Born . If they are not baptized will they also be condemned.I always Heard Just Repent for your Sins you Shall be Saved ........I don't know the Bible all that Much but this is only what I have heard in church.

babies have no sin...baptism is for those who have sinned. It is for the remission of sins.

BigGunz
07-05-2004, 04:22 PM
wait a minute....I distinctly remember someone on here saying..."we are all born as sinners"...hmmmmm

Miss Mally
07-05-2004, 04:44 PM
wait a minute....I distinctly remember someone on here saying..."we are all born as sinners"...hmmmmm

Some...such as the Catholic Church do believe this...that each child is born with original sin. I believe we are all sinners...but are not born with sin.

BigGunz
07-05-2004, 04:58 PM
ok so we are not born with sin and never sin our whole lives always on the straight and narrow ...yet we never get baptised....what happens then?

MiraculousMutha
07-05-2004, 05:13 PM
You get nailed to a cross.

Miss Mally
07-05-2004, 05:18 PM
ok so we are not born with sin and never sin our whole lives always on the straight and narrow ...yet we never get baptised....what happens then?

M&M got that one right. :)

Only one man has ever accomplished this and we are told he is the only one that ever will.

BigGunz
07-05-2004, 05:28 PM
ok so at what time in childhood or adulthood do we become sinners?

BigGunz
07-05-2004, 05:32 PM
[quote=BigGunz]wait a minute....I distinctly remember someone on here saying..."we are all born as sinners"...hmmmmm

Some...such as the Catholic Church do believe this...that each child is born with original sin. I believe we are all sinners...but are not born with sin.[/quote;

Is there a verse in the bible that states we are not born with sin? Im curious and cant seem to find it...but then again i havent got a new bible yet.

Miss Mally
07-05-2004, 05:45 PM
[quote=BigGunz]wait a minute....I distinctly remember someone on here saying..."we are all born as sinners"...hmmmmm

Some...such as the Catholic Church do believe this...that each child is born with original sin. I believe we are all sinners...but are not born with sin.[/quote;

Is there a verse in the bible that states we are not born with sin? Im curious and cant seem to find it...but then again i havent got a new bible yet.

Romans 9:11-12

for [the children] being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,12 it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.13 Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

this may help.