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Anonymous
07-03-2004, 10:59 PM
Bide ye wiccan laws ye must in perfect love and perfect trust
Live and let live, fairly take and fairly give.
For the circle thrice about to keep all evil spirits out
To bind ye spell every time, let ye spell be spake in rhyme
Soft of eye, light of touch, speak ye little listen much
Deosil by the waxing moon, singing out ye Witches' Rune
Widdershins go by the waning moon, channting out ye Baneful Rune
When the Lady's moon is new, kiss your hand to her times two
When the moon rides at her peak, then ye hearts desires seek
Heed the north winds' mighty gale,lock the door and trim the sail
When the winds comes from the South, love will kiss ye on the mouth
When the blows from the West, departed souls may have no rest
When the wind blows from the East, expect the new and set the feast
Nine woods in ye cauldron go, burn them fast and burn them slow
Elder be ye Lady's tree, burn it not or cursed ye'll be
When the wheel begins to turn, soon ye bealtain fire'll burn
When the wheel hath tuned a Yule, light a log the Horned One rules.
Heed ye flower, bush and tree, by the Lady blessed be
Where the rippling waters waters flow, cast a stone and truth you'll know
When he have and hold a need, hearken not to others' reed
With a fool no season spend, nor be couted as his friend
Merry Meet and Merry Part, bright the cheeks and warm the heart
Mind ye threefold law ye should, three times band and three times good
When misfortune is anow, wear the star upon your brow
True love ye must ever be, lest thy love be false to thee
In these eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill, an ye harm none, do what ye will

This is the Wiccan Rede(without the extension) which is a poem that incorporates the rule of three, which can be summed up to an ye harm none, do what ye will. This means that if you do not harm anybody, person, animal, plant, living thing in general, you may do as you wish. This can be compared to the ten commandments (Love thy neighbor as thyself) or the golden rule ("Do onto others as you would have them do onto you"). The full Wiccan rede is law to some interperetations and advice to others. It is certienly quite idealistic. Anyway, I just wanted to share the text that I follow, like the bible is too most of you. It is actually suprisingly similar to the ten commandments, except for the fact that it sums them up in eight words at the end. Hey, who knows, you might learn something from it. :)

BigGunz
07-04-2004, 03:29 AM
I understood everything there but this one thing...please explain it to me

"When the wheel hath tuned a Yule, light a log the Horned One rules."

no offense just curious is all.

Anonymous
07-04-2004, 09:19 AM
hello, biggun! you didnt ask me, but you know how i am.... the horned one does not mean the devil, if that is what you are concerned about. it represents the old god, cernunnos, who has or wears stag antlers. he is a celtic god of several things, including life and animals, thus the horns. wiccans (and many others) recognize the wheel of the year, and when it "turns yule", it is the beginning of winter, or the dark time of the year..."dark" meaning when the sun is at its lowest, when the earth is fallow and when people rest. these beliefs are based on an agrarian society, and these farming people were very aware of the suns seasons. they thought of life as being the same way...a cycle of life, death and rebirth, with life being the light or fertile part of the journey, and the dark being the fallow or resting time. to the celts, cernunnos governed the underworld (death, not hell) and the winter, and he began his rule at yule, winter solstice, and ended it at beltane, summer solstice. cernunnos is a very old god, with depictions of him dating to prehistorical times, and he represents nothing evil.
sorry you asked? :D

Goalie
07-04-2004, 09:35 AM
And the "Lady" is...???

Anonymous
07-04-2004, 09:41 AM
hello, biggun! you didnt ask me, but you know how i am.... the horned one does not mean the devil, if that is what you are concerned about. it represents the old god, cernunnos, who has or wears stag antlers. he is a celtic god of several things, including life and animals, thus the horns. wiccans (and many others) recognize the wheel of the year, and when it "turns yule", it is the beginning of winter, or the dark time of the year..."dark" meaning when the sun is at its lowest, when the earth is fallow and when people rest. these beliefs are based on an agrarian society, and these farming people were very aware of the suns seasons. they thought of life as being the same way...a cycle of life, death and rebirth, with life being the light or fertile part of the journey, and the dark being the fallow or resting time. to the celts, cernunnos governed the underworld (death, not hell) and the winter, and he began his rule at yule, winter solstice, and ended it at beltane, summer solstice. cernunnos is a very old god, with depictions of him dating to prehistorical times, and he represents nothing evil.
sorry you asked? :D That could not have been explained any better Maggie.

Miss Mally
07-04-2004, 11:47 AM
I understand that this is Celtic Pagan religion...do you know what they were before....where these pagan religions orginated?

Anonymous
07-04-2004, 12:11 PM
uh oh! upon re-reading my last post, i see i made a mistake. beltane is not summer solstice; litha is. sorry.

Anonymous
07-04-2004, 01:21 PM
I understand that this is Celtic Pagan religion...do you know what they were before....where these pagan religions orginated? Many of these pagan religions did in fact trace roots to the early Celts. However, there are many different traditions and the early celtic religions were modernized into Wicca. No longer a Celtic Pagan religion, but a neo-pagan religion. Some trace Wicca's routes purely to the ancient Celts, some do not. Some add other characteristics of other religions to satisfy their own spirituality, such as combining aspects of Christianity and Wicca in a more ecliptic path. Some even add elements from ancient Greek and Roman paganism. There are many different sects of paganism, including Wicca, most of which can either trace there beliefs back to elements of ancient Celts or the ancient Greek or Roman religions. Hope this helps! :D

Miss Mally
07-04-2004, 02:25 PM
Celtic History is one of my favs...as it is a study of my ancestors.

We know that the Celts did not originate in the West...but accually came from the Eastern Steppes and migrated into Europe and eventually to Spain and the British Isles. The orginal peoples of Scotland were the mesolithic and later intermingled with the Beaker peoples. And while it has been thought that the Celts wiped out the these indigionous peoples...recent DNA results show that while the Celts conquered it was by intermarrage rather than annihilation. The Celts imposed their rule and culture...but they did not wipe out the peoples.


The god, Bel (or Cernunnos, the horned god of Ireland) accually finds it roots in the middle east. Bel is also known as Baal by the Cannanite peoples. They took their pagan religion to the West.

Baal and or Bel was also known by the Ammonites as Moleck. Moleck, Baal and Bel were all horned Gods. Moleck and Baal required human sacrifice as did Bel in the early stages of Celtic History. This was during the time when Celts hung the skulls of man in their homes for decorations.

The Ammonites sacrificed their children to Moleck as did many other races that followed this pagan God. Early digs show the in the early years of both the Scots and Irish Celtic history they followed this practice as well...it wasn't until the Celts were fully established in the British Isle that they began to modify these practices. By the time of the Roman impire...the more Classic Celtic religion had its strong hold in the Isles. By this time the classes of clergy were fully established - the druid, the bard and ovate.

Molech is by all Judeo-Christian accounts the devil...fallen from grace with God (the Creator God...the God of Abraham). The basic roots of Celtic religion have been in conflict with the Judeo-Christians religion from almost the beginning of time...and certainly from the beginning of recorded history.

It is also more than just religion...it is the historical Hatfields and McCoys. The followers of Molech often captured the followers of God and made slaves of those peoples....and then vice versa. It is a battle of not just religion but of territory and power.

Anonymous
07-04-2004, 02:34 PM
Celtic History is one of my favs...as it is a study of my ancestors.

We know that the Celts did not originate in the West...but accually came from the Eastern Steppes and migrated into Europe and eventually to Spain and the British Isles. The orginal peoples of Scotland were the mesolithic and later intermingled with the Beaker peoples. And while it has been thought that the Celts wiped out the these indigionous peoples...recent DNA results show that while the Celts conquered it was by intermarrage rather than annihilation. The Celts imposed their rule and culture...but they did not wipe out the peoples.


The god, Bel (or Cernunnos, the horned god of Ireland) accually finds it roots in the middle east. Bel is also known as Baal by the Cannanite peoples. They took their pagan religion to the West.

Baal and or Bel was also known by the Ammonites as Moleck. Moleck, Baal and Bel were all horned Gods. Moleck and Baal required human sacrifice as did Bel in the early stages of Celtic History. This was during the time when Celts hung the skulls of man in their homes for decorations.

The Ammonites sacrificed their children to Moleck as did many other races that followed this pagan God. Early digs show the in the early years of both the Scots and Irish Celtic history they followed this practice as well...it wasn't until the Celts were fully established in the British Isle that they began to modify these practices. By the time of the Roman impire...the more Classic Celtic religion had its strong hold in the Isles. By this time the classes of clergy were fully established - the druid, the bard and ovate.

Molech is by all Judeo-Christian accounts the devil...fallen from grace with God (the Creator God...the God of Abraham). The basic roots of Celtic religion have been in conflict with the Judeo-Christians religion from almost the beginning of time...and certainly from the beginning of recorded history.

It is also more than just religion...it is the historical Hatfields and McCoys. The followers of Molech often captured the followers of God and made slaves of those peoples....and then vice versa. It is a battle of not just religion but of territory and power. Wow, mally, thats interesting! I guess we can all learn a thing or two from you. Hey, you really do pay attention to the details, don't you? :D

Miss Mally
07-04-2004, 02:39 PM
Many of our Holidays today get there roots from these Celtic Religions...from that culture.

Ground Hog day for example...was incorporated from the Celtic holiday Imbolc which celebrated the beginning of Spring. The catholic monks transformed it to Candlemas and it is now Groundhog day.

May Day comes from the third festivel of the Celts, Beltane or Bealtunn. This festivel celebrates the death of Bel (the horned God) and his rebirth as the Goddess's son. He then impregnates her insuring the never ending cycle of rebirth.

Halloween comes from the Celtic festivel Samhain....where the boundries between the spirit world or the netherworld and our world thin and both inhabitants can cross back and forth.

anyway...just thought this was interesting.

Miss Mally
07-04-2004, 02:42 PM
Celtic History is one of my favs...as it is a study of my ancestors.

We know that the Celts did not originate in the West...but accually came from the Eastern Steppes and migrated into Europe and eventually to Spain and the British Isles. The orginal peoples of Scotland were the mesolithic and later intermingled with the Beaker peoples. And while it has been thought that the Celts wiped out the these indigionous peoples...recent DNA results show that while the Celts conquered it was by intermarrage rather than annihilation. The Celts imposed their rule and culture...but they did not wipe out the peoples.


The god, Bel (or Cernunnos, the horned god of Ireland) accually finds it roots in the middle east. Bel is also known as Baal by the Cannanite peoples. They took their pagan religion to the West.

Baal and or Bel was also known by the Ammonites as Moleck. Moleck, Baal and Bel were all horned Gods. Moleck and Baal required human sacrifice as did Bel in the early stages of Celtic History. This was during the time when Celts hung the skulls of man in their homes for decorations.

The Ammonites sacrificed their children to Moleck as did many other races that followed this pagan God. Early digs show the in the early years of both the Scots and Irish Celtic history they followed this practice as well...it wasn't until the Celts were fully established in the British Isle that they began to modify these practices. By the time of the Roman impire...the more Classic Celtic religion had its strong hold in the Isles. By this time the classes of clergy were fully established - the druid, the bard and ovate.

Molech is by all Judeo-Christian accounts the devil...fallen from grace with God (the Creator God...the God of Abraham). The basic roots of Celtic religion have been in conflict with the Judeo-Christians religion from almost the beginning of time...and certainly from the beginning of recorded history.

It is also more than just religion...it is the historical Hatfields and McCoys. The followers of Molech often captured the followers of God and made slaves of those peoples....and then vice versa. It is a battle of not just religion but of territory and power. Wow, mally, thats interesting! I guess we can all learn a thing or two from you. Hey, you really do pay attention to the details, don't you? :D

lol...I love the study of History...always have. I guess it comes natural...my mom is a big History buff. She has our family tree on two different lines traced back to the third century.

All history is wrapped in some type of religion...you can't really study history and the cultures of past peoples without studying their religious practices.

Anonymous
07-04-2004, 02:48 PM
Many of our Holidays today get there roots from these Celtic Religions...from that culture.

Ground Hog day for example...was incorporated from the Celtic holiday Imbolc which celebrated the beginning of Spring. The catholic monks transformed it to Candlemas and it is now Groundhog day.

May Day comes from the third festivel of the Celts, Beltane or Bealtunn. This festivel celebrates the death of Bel (the horned God) and his rebirth as the Goddess's son. He then impregnates her insuring the never ending cycle of rebirth.

Halloween comes from the Celtic festivel Samhain....where the boundries between the spirit world or the netherworld and our world thin and both inhabitants can cross back and forth.

anyway...just thought this was interesting. Yes, I celebrate these three holidays, Imbolc, Samhain and Beltane in there original form. Samhain is my favorite because I take my family to Salem Massachussets. It is amazing up there on Samhain! Witch shops line the street and the smell of incents floats in the air. You can feel the energy in the air. I also love Yule, celebrating the coming of warmer days. I believe this is where Christmas came from, but I will have to check. I think Yule on the 21st was changed to Christmas on the 25th. We sit on a dark beach in our cloaks chanting and lighting the Yule log, ennvisioning with it the warmer days to come. It is extremely energizing and it brings me closer to my spirituality, allowing me to forget the chaos in the world. We also have a Yule tree, with lights and decorations. It is a suprisingly similar holiday to Christmas. Anyway, those are two of my favorites. Thanks for sharing your knowledge mally! :)

Miss Mally
07-04-2004, 02:54 PM
You are correct in the origin of Christmas...to an extent...it is also a combination of the Roman pagan holiday (whos roots are the same as the Celtic...those of the Cannanite peoples) that celebrates the Sun God. The catholic church incorporated this by teaching the pagan romans that they were really celebrating the Son not the Sun.

Anonymous
07-04-2004, 02:55 PM
And the "Lady" is...??? To put it very simply. (Ive got to run my daughter to the doctor's office) The lady in the Rede is the one goddess, or, The earth mother. She is simply the epitome of the goddess, and is represesented frequently in most neo-pagan and celtic pagan religion.

Miss Mally
07-04-2004, 02:59 PM
hello, biggun! you didnt ask me, but you know how i am.... the horned one does not mean the devil, if that is what you are concerned about. it represents the old god, cernunnos, who has or wears stag antlers. he is a celtic god of several things, including life and animals, thus the horns. wiccans (and many others) recognize the wheel of the year, and when it "turns yule", it is the beginning of winter, or the dark time of the year..."dark" meaning when the sun is at its lowest, when the earth is fallow and when people rest. these beliefs are based on an agrarian society, and these farming people were very aware of the suns seasons. they thought of life as being the same way...a cycle of life, death and rebirth, with life being the light or fertile part of the journey, and the dark being the fallow or resting time. to the celts, cernunnos governed the underworld (death, not hell) and the winter, and he began his rule at yule, winter solstice, and ended it at beltane, summer solstice. cernunnos is a very old god, with depictions of him dating to prehistorical times, and he represents nothing evil.
sorry you asked? :D

Maggie...if you look to the origians...this God does represent the god that the Israelites associated with demons and the Devil.

kay
07-04-2004, 05:13 PM
I just have one question rocin, where will you be going when you die?

Anonymous
07-04-2004, 05:19 PM
I just have one question rocin, where will you be going when you die? Kay, I believe in reincarnation. Some believe the same as me, others believe in an underworld (as Maggie said, not hell). However I belive that you will be reincarnated when you die. As such, in my religion, we do not pay for our wrong doings in death, but in life, where we believe it does the most good. Therefore, kindness is rewarded in life as well. I hope that clears up your question Kay. :D

kay
07-04-2004, 05:30 PM
So if I chose to believe like you, I might end up as someones pet? Or are you only reincarnated into another human being? And are you born as an infant or what? Rocin, what if you are right? I myself have lost nothing, but, what if I am right, what have you lost? An eternity in Heaven. I am praying for you.

And Jesus loves you even though you don't know him personally. I hope that you will at least seek out the Christian belief, it might really be a worthwhile thing for you. What do you have to lose?

Miss Mally
07-04-2004, 06:14 PM
Ben Hinnon is a vally where the Jews...when they had fallen away from worshiping God and had taken to worshipping Baal...would sacrifice their children to fire.

2 Chronicles 33:6 He (Manasseh King of Judah) sacrifieced his sons in the fire in the Valley of Ben Hinnon, practiced sorcery, divantion and witchcraft, and consulted mediums and spiritists...

The Greek translation for the Hebrew name Ben Hinnon is Gehenna.

Matthew 5:29-30
"If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body thrown into Gehenna. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body go into Gehenna."

Jesus used Gehenna in decribing Hell multiple times.

Rocin...I know you have made comments before about why Christians are so unexcepting of your beliefs. Your beliefs find their roots in the very things that our God has always been opposed to.

Many Wiccans do not even realize that their religion roots ultimately go right back to the same time period and some of the same peoples as those of the Christian beliefs. It is just that they are in opposition to each other and have been since the beggining.

Miss Mally
07-04-2004, 06:53 PM
A little bit more info on Gehenna (had to go find the book)

The Persians believed Gehenna or the Vally of Ben Hinnon to be a place inhabited by the divs, or the rebelious angels, who had been confined there when the refused to bow down to the first man (the Persian variation on the fall of Satan). - Spence, Lewis.
An Encyclopedia of Occultism
New York, Carol Publishing Group Edition, 1996

Miss Mally
07-04-2004, 07:12 PM
many of the ancient writings like those of the Babalonians show pictures of a god with the body of a serpant and the head of a bull or ram with stag horns. These text are in reference to the fall of man...the sepent who walked on legs and tempted woman.

Cernunnous or Bel the Horned God is also described as a serpent with the head of a ram and stag horns.

And while many neo pagans, new age or wiccans deny the association of their god Cernunous to that of Satan....they do not have the knowledge of the ancient text or of the history of their own beliefs.

It is similar to where many of the Christian faith have no knowledge that many of their "religious" holidays in fact have their roots in not the Christian faith but in paganism. Even the praying to Mary mother of Jesus does not find its roots in the bible...but in paganism. In 423AD the Christianized people of Ephuses (a people that had heavily worshiped the Goddess), began worshiping Mary the Goddess or more likely had been worshiping her in secret all along. The worship of the Goddess had been banned...but during the Council of the Bishops the people rioted in the streets, and so the Bishops relented...allowing that Mary could be worshipped...not as Mary the Goddess but as Mary the Mother of God.

Anonymous
07-04-2004, 07:24 PM
mally, ive looked at the origins of cernunnos, many times. they go back much further than the israelites. in fact, they go back to the paleolithic period where cavedrawings were made. perhaps the israelites did associate cernunnos with demons or the devil. modern day christians do the same thing. that does not make them right. the origin of cernunnos is not the middle east. it is gaul, or what is now france. he was celebrated all over gaul and even into britain. the origin of baal might be the middle east; i dont know. ive never studied middle eastern gods, well, except for allah. i have studied the islamic "bible", which is almost word for word the same as the christian bible. as far as required sacrifices, the early druids did sacrifice humans, but that practice quickly disappeared, and there is no written document stating that cernunnos required human sacrifices. celtic pagans in those days did not know how to read and write. the only written account we have of their practices comes from the romans, and especially from julius caesar. these romans were occupying and trying to conquer the pagans and therefore painted their religious practices in the worst possible light. i do recall that accounts in the christian bible state that god required some people to be willing to perform a human sacrifice. anyway, i dont think it matters what the origins of anything are. i just think it matters what we practice today. sounds to me like rocin practices a religion that should be accepted without trying to convert him. i havent heard him proselytizing to anyone. we should all be more tolerant and accepting of the beliefs of others, even when they arent the same as ours.

Miss Mally
07-04-2004, 08:17 PM
mally, ive looked at the origins of cernunnos, many times. they go back much further than the israelites. in fact, they go back to the paleolithic period where cavedrawings were made. perhaps the israelites did associate cernunnos with demons or the devil. modern day christians do the same thing. that does not make them right. the origin of cernunnos is not the middle east. it is gaul, or what is now france. he was celebrated all over gaul and even into britain. the origin of baal might be the middle east; i dont know. ive never studied middle eastern gods, well, except for allah. i have studied the islamic "bible", which is almost word for word the same as the christian bible. as far as required sacrifices, the early druids did sacrifice humans, but that practice quickly disappeared, and there is no written document stating that cernunnos required human sacrifices. celtic pagans in those days did not know how to read and write. the only written account we have of their practices comes from the romans, and especially from julius caesar. these romans were occupying and trying to conquer the pagans and therefore painted their religious practices in the worst possible light. i do recall that accounts in the christian bible state that god required some people to be willing to perform a human sacrifice. anyway, i dont think it matters what the origins of anything are. i just think it matters what we practice today. sounds to me like rocin practices a religion that should be accepted without trying to convert him. i havent heard him proselytizing to anyone. we should all be more tolerant and accepting of the beliefs of others, even when they arent the same as ours.

Celts derive not just from the Gauls...but from the Galations...which are accually a mix of Gaul and Greek and Cannanites. If you will really do some research...you will find that the Gauls took their beliefs from those in Tigres Vallies. And while you are correct that some suppose the worship of Cernunnous may date to the Cave days, because of paintings found in the Caverne des Trois Freres at Ariege, France,
similar paintings are found in the America's...on the walls of caves here...and these people came to the America's from the East.

No there is no written history of Celtic sacrifice...but digs of their early settlements in the Isle do show that this practice was observed.

As far as stating my beliefs on the matter....Rocin and you put it on a public message board. It is up for discussion of all on this board. I do not tell Rocin he can not mention his beliefs on this board...and nor that when he does do I claim he is trying to convert anyone here. But you Maggie...seemed to be very uncomfortable with my speaking about this issue at all.

And for you...while the origins and early practices of your religion may not matter to you...they are of interest to many of the rest of us and may matter to some who didn't know.

Your god Bel is known by many as Moleck, Marduke, Baal, Pan, Herne the Hunter, Osiris, Dionysus as well as the Celtic god Esus. There are many names for God...Lord, I AM, Jehovah, Allah and others.

Anonymous
07-04-2004, 09:02 PM
mally, im afraid you are taking this personally when i didnt mean it to be. i see nothing at all wrong with your expressing your opinions. im just talking about people trying to convert rocin. i was just hoping we could have an intellectual discussion about religion without letting our emotions run away with us. if you will read my post again, you will see that i did not say that celts derived from the gauls. i simply said cernunnos is a celtic god who was celebrated all over gaul. im glad you pointed out that similar drawings were found in the americas. this just means that all gods with stag horns did not originate in the middle east. as the first people migrated, they carried their beliefs with them, but im sure those beliefs and practices were modified over the years. the latest research shows that many civilizations developed concurrently instead of consecutively. so if there was a god with stag horns in the middle east called baal, and one in gaul called cernunnos and one in the americas called whatever (guess i will have to find out what), that just means thats the way the people looked at things back then. the evidence of human sacrifice with the celts is not conclusive, and what isle are you talking about? mally, i didnt say the origins of our religions were not of interest to us; i simply said they dont matter compared to what we practice now. if you disagree with that, its ok. i also would like to ask you why you would say my god is...i never said anything about my god. that was rocins post, and i merely commented on it. you shouldnt assume anything about my religion, and no one should be commenting on it if they dont know what it is. oh, and one other thing...pan and cernunnos are not one and the same. in fact, the gods you mention are not synonyms for cernunnos. they are all different even though they may have some of the same attributes. most pagans have a pantheon of gods and goddesses and not just many names for the same one. cernunnos is not a snake with a rams head. he has the body of a man with stag horns. he is often depicted holding a snake with a rams head. he is also depicted with a purse of coins, but that doesnt make him a silver dollar. besides, to most pagans, snakes are not a symbol of evil any more than any other living thing. in fact, they are often a symbol of wisdom and strength. the toltecs, mayans and native americans (and modern day doctors) use the snake as a sacred symbol. again, i want to say that i dont mind anyone giving their opinion on anything here because thats just what it is...an opinion.

Anonymous
07-04-2004, 09:24 PM
Could someone please point out to me the post in which I mentioned "my god." I cant seem to find such a post. Thanks. I may be overlooking something. I believe I mentioned the goddess I worship, rather then the god.

Miss Mally
07-04-2004, 09:35 PM
Great...sorry if I misunderstood you. I just didn't see where the prostilisizing came in.

It is my belief...that the reason some many of the pagan religions are the same around the world...are that all peoples came from the same origin...in the middle east. These people migrated out from the middle east to both north, south, east and west...taking the basics of their beliefs with them....adding to them, changing them as they went.

I got one of the decriptions of the Horned God from
"The Celts: The People who Came out of the Darkness." Hern, Gerhard.
New York: St. Martin's Press, 1975.

It is as follows: Occasionally he was portrayed with serpent torso, a head of a bull or ram, or shown with stags wearing antlers. The name Cernunnous means horned. He is the lord of life, death and the underworld.

"origin of cernunnos is not the middle east. it is gaul, or what is now france"...this is what you said. I took it to mean you were saying the Celts did not migrate from the East.

I think we are both misreading what the other is saying.

As to Pan and the Horned God being the same...most references I have found support this

both the book I listed earlier and this one


Celtic Mythology. Mac Cana, Proinsias
New York: Peter Bedrick Books, 1985

As to the Isle I spoke of...these were references to Irland, The Isle of Man, Mona

Miss Mally
07-04-2004, 09:41 PM
Could someone please point out to me the post in which I mentioned "my god." I cant seem to find such a post. Thanks. I may be overlooking something. I believe I mentioned the goddess I worship, rather then the god.

Oh...I am sorry Rocin...You said this was the creed that you follow...

"Anyway, I just wanted to share the text that I follow, "

and this is part of that creed...

"When the wheel hath tuned a Yule, light a log the Horned One rules"

and you did say you light the yule log. So...that is where I gathered the Horned God was a part of your religious beliefs.

Sorry if I misunderstood.

Anonymous
07-04-2004, 09:58 PM
So if I chose to believe like you, I might end up as someones pet? Or are you only reincarnated into another human being? And are you born as an infant or what? Rocin, what if you are right? I myself have lost nothing, but, what if I am right, what have you lost? An eternity in Heaven. I am praying for you.

And Jesus loves you even though you don't know him personally. I hope that you will at least seek out the Christian belief, it might really be a worthwhile thing for you. What do you have to lose? Kay, you are implying that I am wrong in what I believe. Jesus loves me if I do not know him personally. I dont believe in Jesus, therefore I dont believe that he loves me because I believe he isnt there. What if I was in your place, saying that the goddess loves you no matter what you think. Would you take umbridge to that? Also, Wicca is not an empty spirituality. It is rich in joy and happiness, loving what is around you at all moments. I live my religion every day. Therefore I have everything to lose by finding Christianity. Again, if we were to change places, and I said, what do you have to lose be turning pagan, would you not take offense? Why is Christianity worthwhile to me, Kay, if I already have passionate beliefs? I respect what you believe, and do not try to convert you. In fact, I do not wish to convert anyone. I just hope that, in the end, you will do the same for me. Thanks.

Anonymous
07-04-2004, 10:00 PM
Could someone please point out to me the post in which I mentioned "my god." I cant seem to find such a post. Thanks. I may be overlooking something. I believe I mentioned the goddess I worship, rather then the god.

Oh...I am sorry Rocin...You said this was the creed that you follow...

"Anyway, I just wanted to share the text that I follow, "

and this is part of that creed...

"When the wheel hath tuned a Yule, light a log the Horned One rules"

and you did say you light the yule log. So...that is where I gathered the Horned God was a part of your religious beliefs.

Sorry if I misunderstood. No Mally, I realize it was my mistake. Yes he is part of my beliefs. I am sorry. I must have overlooked that. Im sorry, it was my mistake. :D

Miss Mally
07-04-2004, 10:11 PM
Could someone please point out to me the post in which I mentioned "my god." I cant seem to find such a post. Thanks. I may be overlooking something. I believe I mentioned the goddess I worship, rather then the god.

Oh...I am sorry Rocin...You said this was the creed that you follow...

"Anyway, I just wanted to share the text that I follow, "

and this is part of that creed...

"When the wheel hath tuned a Yule, light a log the Horned One rules"

and you did say you light the yule log. So...that is where I gathered the Horned God was a part of your religious beliefs.

Sorry if I misunderstood. No Mally, I realize it was my mistake. Yes he is part of my beliefs. I am sorry. I must have overlooked that. Im sorry, it was my mistake. :D

No problem :)

I think where Kay is coming from...is that your belief of reincarnation does not allow that the soul may be in danger of seperation from God. Since we have faith that this is the case....we feel compelled to at least expose those that we care about to the Good News. In fact we are told to do so. Do not take it as trying to force something unhealthy on you. lol It is truely done out of love. Be thankfull someone cares enough....even if you reject the News. :)

Anonymous
07-04-2004, 10:16 PM
Could someone please point out to me the post in which I mentioned "my god." I cant seem to find such a post. Thanks. I may be overlooking something. I believe I mentioned the goddess I worship, rather then the god.

Oh...I am sorry Rocin...You said this was the creed that you follow...

"Anyway, I just wanted to share the text that I follow, "

and this is part of that creed...

"When the wheel hath tuned a Yule, light a log the Horned One rules"

and you did say you light the yule log. So...that is where I gathered the Horned God was a part of your religious beliefs.

Sorry if I misunderstood. No Mally, I realize it was my mistake. Yes he is part of my beliefs. I am sorry. I must have overlooked that. Im sorry, it was my mistake. :D

No problem :)

I think where Kay is coming from...is that your belief of reincarnation does not allow that the soul may be in danger of seperation from God. Since we have faith that this is the case....we feel compelled to at least expose those that we care about to the Good News. In fact we are told to do so. Do not take it as trying to force something unhealthy on you. lol It is truely done out of love. Be thankfull someone cares enough....even if you reject the News. :) You have given and I have rejected. Hey, what can I say? You have done your Christian duty.

Miss Mally
07-04-2004, 10:21 PM
Could someone please point out to me the post in which I mentioned "my god." I cant seem to find such a post. Thanks. I may be overlooking something. I believe I mentioned the goddess I worship, rather then the god.

Oh...I am sorry Rocin...You said this was the creed that you follow...

"Anyway, I just wanted to share the text that I follow, "

and this is part of that creed...

"When the wheel hath tuned a Yule, light a log the Horned One rules"

and you did say you light the yule log. So...that is where I gathered the Horned God was a part of your religious beliefs.

Sorry if I misunderstood. No Mally, I realize it was my mistake. Yes he is part of my beliefs. I am sorry. I must have overlooked that. Im sorry, it was my mistake. :D

No problem :)

I think where Kay is coming from...is that your belief of reincarnation does not allow that the soul may be in danger of seperation from God. Since we have faith that this is the case....we feel compelled to at least expose those that we care about to the Good News. In fact we are told to do so. Do not take it as trying to force something unhealthy on you. lol It is truely done out of love. Be thankfull someone cares enough....even if you reject the News. :) You have given and I have rejected. Hey, what can I say? You have done your Christian duty.

hahahahahahahahahahahhaha

Anonymous
07-04-2004, 10:35 PM
i didnt say you were proselytizing. i just said rocin wasnt, and that NO ONE should. i agree that all pagans came from the same origins...the same origins the christians and all other people came from...the african continent. pan is indeed a horned god, but he is not cernunnos. there are many horned gods that belong to different paths of paganism. you quoted something from "celts, the people who came out of the darkness. "what darkness? also, i think it would benefit you to read something later than 1975 for information. i believe it would be more accurate. also, cernunnos is god of more than life, death and the underworld. he is also god of the forest and the animals. thats why he wears stag horns and is portrayed with many different kinds of animals. people should understand that underworld does not mean something awful or evil. it just represents the time between dying and being reborn. pagans dont equate their horned gods with satan; the christians are the ones who do that. wicca does not equal devil worship. wicca is an established, organized and legally recognized religion, and there is nothing occult (hidden) about it.

Miss Mally
07-04-2004, 10:46 PM
i didnt say you were proselytizing. i just said rocin wasnt, and that NO ONE should. i agree that all pagans came from the same origins...the same origins the christians and all other people came from...the african continent. pan is indeed a horned god, but he is not cernunnos. there are many horned gods that belong to different paths of paganism. you quoted something from "celts, the people who came out of the darkness. "what darkness? also, i think it would benefit you to read something later than 1975 for information. i believe it would be more accurate. also, cernunnos is god of more than life, death and the underworld. he is also god of the forest and the animals. thats why he wears stag horns and is portrayed with many different kinds of animals. people should understand that underworld does not mean something awful or evil. it just represents the time between dying and being reborn. pagans dont equate their horned gods with satan; the christians are the ones who do that. wicca does not equal devil worship. wicca is an established, organized and legally recognized religion, and there is nothing occult (hidden) about it.

I have read more than one...and it is basicly just a historical perspective. The Celts were a dark and horrific warrior people...with a Druid priesthood who did keep much of their knowledge among themselves and secret from the general people they served. Darkness was and still is a part of the belief system...as many of the festivals take place after dark. In fact...the whole idea of winter is that it is a time of darkness and come spring the sun returns. this I believe is where part of the title came from.

Do you so easily discount Garner, Frazer, Graves and Neumann's writings prior to the 70's and 80's? Much of Wicca's present day foundations were formed from these men's writings.

Rhiannon
07-04-2004, 10:51 PM
The 13 Principles of Wiccan Belief:
1. We practice rites to attune ourselves with the natural rhythm of life forces marked by the phases of the Moon and the seasonal Quarters and Cross Quarters.

2. We recognize that our intelligence gives us a unique responsibility toward our environment. We seek to live in harmony with nature in ecological balance offering fulfillment to life and consciousness within an evolutionary concept.

3. We acknowledge a depth of power far greater than that apparent to the average person. Because it is far greater than ordinary it is sometimes called ‘supernatural’, but we see it as lying within that which is naturally potential to all.

4. We conceive of the Creative Power in the universe as manifesting through polarity – as masculine and feminine – and that this same Creative Power lies in all people and functions through the interaction of the masculine and the feminine. We value neither above the other knowing each to be supportive of the other. We value sex as pleasure as the symbol and embodiment of life, and as one of the sources of energy used in magical practice and religious worship.

5. We recognize both outer worlds and inner, or psychological worlds sometimes known as the Spiritual World, the Collective Unconsciousness, the Inner Planes etc – and we see in the interaction of these two dimensions the basis for paranormal phenomena and magical exercises. We neglect neither dimension for the other, seeing both as necessary for our fulfillment.

6. We do not recognize any authoritarian hierarchy, but do honor those who teach, respect those who share their greater knowledge and wisdom, and acknowledge those who have courageously given of themselves in leadership.

7. We see religion, magick and wisdom in living as being united in the way one views the world and lives within it – a world view and philosophy of life which we identify as Witchcraft – the Wiccan Way.

8. Calling oneself ‘Witch’ does not make a Witch – but neither does heredity itself, nor the collecting of titles, degrees and initiations. A Witch seek to control the forces within her/himself that make life possible in order to live wisely and without harm to others and in harmony with nature.

9. We believe in the affirmation and fulfillment of life in a continuation of evolution and development of consciousness giving meaning to the Universe we know and our personal role within it.

10.Our only animosity towards Christianity, or towards any other religion or philosophy of life, is to the extent that its institutions have claimed to be ‘the only way’ and have sought to deny freedom to others and to suppress other ways of religious practice and belief.

11. As American Witches, we are not threatened by debates on the history of the craft, the origins of various terms, the legitimacy of various aspects of different traditions. We are concerned with our present and our future.

12.We do not accept the concept of absolute evil, nor do we worship any entity known as ‘Satan’ or ‘the Devil’ as defined by Christian tradition. We do not seek power through the suffering of others, nor accept that personal benefit can be derived only by denial to another.

13.We believe that we should seek within Nature that which is contributory to our health and well-being.

Miss Mally
07-04-2004, 10:53 PM
Van de Weyer, Robert, ed.
Celtic Fires: The Passionate Religious Vision of Anciernt Britain and Ireland.
New York, Doubleday, 1990.

Starhawk.
The Spiral Dance: A Rebirth of the Ancient Religion of the Great Goddess.
[Special 20th Anniversary Edition]
New York, HarperSanFrancisco, 1999

Here are a few more recent ones...if that helps.

Miss Mally
07-04-2004, 11:15 PM
"1st millennium CE:
The first missionary to the Celts may have been St. Paul. He sought converts to Christianity in the Pagan Celtic land of Galatia (now part of Turkey) as recorded in his Epistle to the Galatians of the Christian Scriptures (New Testament). Later Missionaries and the Roman army gradually spread Christianity across Europe, easily converting the rulers and their religious leaders, but having less success in bringing the common folk to the new religion."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_chr.htm

Something I found on line. And while I disagree with most of what is on this sight...I did find it interesting that it does support my earlier accounts of the origins of the Celts and where the Pagan god and goddess originate.

Miss Mally
07-04-2004, 11:25 PM
According to Gardner, Wicca: began in prehistory, as ritual associated with fire, the hunt, animal fertility, plant propagation, tribal fertility and the curing of disease.
developed into a religion which recognized a Supreme Deity, but realized that at their state of evolution, they "were incapable of understanding It" . Instead, they worshipped what might be termed "under-Gods": the Goddess of fertility and her horned consort, the God of the hunt.
continued their predominately Moon based worship, even as a mainly Sun-based faith of priests, the Druids, developed and evolved into the dominant religion of the Celts. By this time, Celtic society had gradually spread across Northern Europe into what is now England, France, Germany, Ireland, Netherlands, Scotland etc. They never formed a single political entity, but remained as many tribes who shared a common culture and religions.
survived the Roman, Saxon, and Norman invasions by going underground
suffered major loss in numbers during the active Christian genocides, which continued into the 18th Century
reached a low ebb by the middle of the 20th century. Much of the theology and ritual had been lost; Wiccan covens had become so isolated that they had lost contact with each other.
was revived in the UK by himself, his High Priestess Doreen Valiente, (1922 - 1999) and others, who took the surviving beliefs and practices, and fleshed them out with material from other religious, spiritual and ceremonial magick sources.


Gardner has claimed that after he wrote his books, he received many letters from members of isolated covens who had believed that their groups had been in continuous existence for generations or centuries.

Other individuals discount this belief system and maintain that there was no continuous Wiccan presence from Celtic times to the 20th century. They maintain that present-day Wicca was created by merging a few ancient Celtic beliefs, deity structure, and seasonal days of celebration with modern material from ceremonial magick, the Masonic Order, etc.

Still others trace Wicca back to a little known faith group in New England in the early 20th century.

This came from that same sight. I had never read to much about Garner before. But it seems that his book falls right in line with what I said earlier about the origins of the Celtic Religion. Garner was the creator os Wicca.

Some Masons may find it interesting, if they didn't already know...that there practices helped to "flesh out" the Wicca practices.

RogueEconomist
07-04-2004, 11:52 PM
I wounder if it is an accident that there are 13 wicca statements. In ancient times here are what numbers represented.

13. Depravity and rebellion

There is no other way to say this but the practice of wicca and the rejection of God's grace will only lead to hell. Also unless God opens your eyes it will be impossible for you to see this. I will pray that your eyes are opened.



Bible Numbers Mean

1. Unity, Primacy

2. Division

3. Divine Perfection or Completeness

4. Fullness of Creation, the World

5. Grace, God's Goodness

6. Man, Man's Wisdom and Labor

7. Spiritual Perfection

8. New Birth, New Creation, New Beginnings

9. Judgment; as 3 x 3, it signifies the Gifts and Fruits of the Spirit

10. Fullness of Law and Responsibility

11. Disorder, Disintegration

12. Divine Government

13. Depravity and Rebellion

14. Deliverance, Salvation

15. Rest

16. Love

17. Victory

18. Bondage

19. Faith

20. Redemption

21. Exceeding Sinfulness of Sin

22. Light

23. Death

24. Priesthood

25. Forgiveness of Sins

26. Gospel of Christ

27. Preaching the Gospel

28. Eternal Life

29. Departure

30. Blood of Christ, Dedication, Spiritual Maturity

31. Offspring

32. Covenant

33. Promise

34. Naming of a Son

35. Hope

36. Enemy

37. Jesus, as The Word of God

38. Slavery

39. Disease, Infirmity, Weakness

40. Trials, Probation, Testings

42. Man's Opposition to God, Antichrist

45. Preservation

46. Herod's Temple, Man Without the Holy Spirit

49. Jubilee

50. Holy Spirit, Pentecost, Jubilee

51. Divine Revelation; Peace

52. Building Wall around Jerusalem

60. Pride

65. Apostasy

66. Idol Worship

70. Universality, Restoration of All Things

76. Cleansing or Blotting Out

100. God's Election of Grace, Children of promise

119. The Call to Resurrection (yet falling short)

120. Probationary Period Awaiting the Outpouring of the Holy Spirit, Those Who Await

144. The First Resurrection saints

153. The Sons of God

200. Insufficiency

210. Time of Jacob's Trouble (see 21)

220. Light (see 22)

276. The Flesh, Satan, Babylon

390. No King in Israel (see 39)

414. Cursed Time

434. Judged Time

490. Blessed Time (see 49)

600. Warfare in the World (see 60)

666. Man's Authority Over God's Creation (usually misused)

888. Fullness of Christ's Body

1000. Glory of God, Completeness

49000. Creation's Jubilee

BigGunz
07-05-2004, 06:01 AM
My last Girlfriend was Wiccan......I never saw or heard her do anything out of the ordinary. I dont know about it and she never forced anything on me ...she just said if I wanted to know anything she would tell me. I never asked....She was a good person with a very open heart...was kind to everyone she met . Real down to earth person. Its a shame she is gone from this earth now.

Goalie
07-05-2004, 08:23 AM
BG, I'm very sorry for your loss. :(

kay
07-05-2004, 08:27 AM
No problem :)

I think where Kay is coming from...is that your belief of reincarnation does not allow that the soul may be in danger of seperation from God. Since we have faith that this is the case....we feel compelled to at least expose those that we care about to the Good News. In fact we are told to do so. Do not take it as trying to force something unhealthy on you. lol It is truely done out of love. Be thankfull someone cares enough....even if you reject the News. :)

[/quote] You have given and I have rejected. Hey, what can I say? You have done your Christian duty.[/quote]

You are right, I have done my duty but I still care about your soul. If what I said offends you then I am sorry it offended you.

Anonymous
07-05-2004, 09:05 AM
biggun, im glad you knew her. dont worry...she will be back.

rogue economist: you say bible numbers mean, etc. bible numbers mean nothing to me, but im surprised that you use numerology if its part of something so evil. by the way, its no accident that there are 13 wiccan statements. 13 is a lucky number...and im not surprised that christians assigned rebellion and depravity to it. 4 is the number for the goddess. what does that represent in your numbers? and as for #9, wiccans believe in the law of 3 X 3...whatever you sow, you reap X 3, so you better harm none.

mally, im glad you read that website, and i hope you read all of it. i hope everyone here reads it. i think its unfortunate that you quoted only the parts you did, out of context. yes, some of the masonic rites are incorporated into wiccan rites, in some cases. and yes, gerald gardner can be credited with the origin of wicca, but since his time, wicca has evolved into something he would barely recognize today. however, there is still a sect of wiccans who carry on the gardnerian tradition, but there are many more different paths, as well, and they are interesting to learn about. to paraphrase a statement from the site you quoted, wicca is a gentle religion, closely akin to the native american religion. however, a peson can say they practice native american religion without all the reaction (and over-reaction) that person gets when he/she says im a wiccan. when you said the pagans practiced at night, you were right. in the ancient times, those people worked from sunup to sundown to survive, and the only time they had to practice was at night. later, pagans practiced at night for their own safety. there is nothing sinister or evil about night, dark or winter. night is just when the sun is on the opposite side of the earth, therefore, its dark. winter is a time of rest for the earth, before growing our food again. the pagans celebrated these seasons. their religion was a simple earth religion, and since christianity has been tried and found lacking by many people in this modern world, its no wonder many want to return to a simpler form of spirituality that puts all the responsibility on the person rather than on god and the devil. no, mally, i dont easily discount any writing, no matter when it was written, but i think its dangerous to severely limit your learning to a few sources.

Art
07-05-2004, 09:24 AM
In Exodus, it says "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live", or words to that effect. But, as Miss Mally has pointed out repeatedly, Exodus is the "old law" and doesn't apply any more. In the literal translation, "witch" meant sorcerer or seer.

The Magi, who followed a bright star to Christ's birthplace with gifts, had traveled 1000 to 1200 miles by camel. In order to arrive at the time of Christ's birth, they would have had to leave their homes a year or more before the birth. They were known to be astrologers, soothsayers, seers, and sorcerers. It is from the word Magi that our words magician and magic(k) are derived.

I, as a "pagan Baptist", am disheartened and disappointed by the lack of tolerance displayed by some other Christians. For a person to tell someone else that they will go to hell because their beliefs don't coincide with his/hers goes against the grain for me. And I'm sure that attitude and lack of tolerance for others has and will continue to "turn off" young people who are in the process of making up their minds about their religious beliefs. Who are we to judge?

Luke 6:37
" Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:"

kay
07-05-2004, 09:39 AM
In Exodus, it says "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live", or words to that effect. But, as Miss Mally has pointed out repeatedly, Exodus is the "old law" and doesn't apply any more. In the literal translation, "witch" meant sorcerer or seer.

The Magi, who followed a bright star to Christ's birthplace with gifts, had traveled 1000 to 1200 miles by camel. In order to arrive at the time of Christ's birth, they would have had to leave their homes a year or more before the birth. They were known to be astrologers, soothsayers, seers, and sorcerers. It is from the word Magi that our words magician and magic(k) are derived.

I, as a "pagan Baptist", am disheartened and disappointed by the lack of tolerance displayed by some other Christians. For a person to tell someone else that they will go to hell because their beliefs don't coincide with his/hers goes against the grain for me. And I'm sure that attitude and lack of tolerance for others has and will continue to "turn off" young people who are in the process of making up their minds about their religious beliefs. Who are we to judge?

Luke 6:37
" Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:"

How do you consider it judging when he very clearly stated that he did not believe in Jesus? What is judgmental about that?
What about the bible verse that says, no-one enters the gates of Heaven but by me? I'm not judging anyone, I am concerned for them.

kay
07-05-2004, 09:45 AM
I, as a "pagan Baptist", am disheartened and disappointed by the lack of tolerance displayed by some other Christians. For a person to tell someone else that they will go to hell because their beliefs don't coincide with his/hers goes against the grain for me. And I'm sure that attitude and lack of tolerance for others has and will continue to "turn off" young people who are in the process of making up their minds about their religious beliefs. Who are we to judge?

Luke 6:37
" Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:"[/quote]

Even being a "pagan Baptist" (whatever that is), do you not believe there is 1 heaven and 1 hell? What part of that is wrong? And what part of that is being judgemental? The Bible says to go out and tell the world. He wasn't specific about posting on a chat board but I think he knows my heart and knows that my only concern is for lost souls. I think you are taking the verse in Luke out of context. In that case, why do have police and law enforcement, shouldn't we just forgive them and go on? There are times when this scripture applies and times when it doesn't. But then lots of scriptures can be taken out of context.

Anonymous
07-05-2004, 09:50 AM
In Exodus, it says "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live", or words to that effect. But, as Miss Mally has pointed out repeatedly, Exodus is the "old law" and doesn't apply any more. In the literal translation, "witch" meant sorcerer or seer.

The Magi, who followed a bright star to Christ's birthplace with gifts, had traveled 1000 to 1200 miles by camel. In order to arrive at the time of Christ's birth, they would have had to leave their homes a year or more before the birth. They were known to be astrologers, soothsayers, seers, and sorcerers. It is from the word Magi that our words magician and magic(k) are derived.

I, as a "pagan Baptist", am disheartened and disappointed by the lack of tolerance displayed by some other Christians. For a person to tell someone else that they will go to hell because their beliefs don't coincide with his/hers goes against the grain for me. And I'm sure that attitude and lack of tolerance for others has and will continue to "turn off" young people who are in the process of making up their minds about their religious beliefs. Who are we to judge?

Luke 6:37
" Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:"

How do you consider it judging when he very clearly stated that he did not believe in Jesus? What is judgmental about that?
What about the bible verse that says, no-one enters the gates of Heaven but by me? I'm not judging anyone, I am concerned for them. Yes, but just because I stated that I did not believe in Jesus, does not mean I should be judged to the point where someone says I am going to hell, on a count of not believing the same as them. As for being concerned for me, why? I have my own beliefs, and therefore my own spirituality, as well as my beliefs about where I shall go after death. I do not believe in a heaven or a hell, but I do not say I am concerned about you because the "goddess loves you and will open your eyes to herself" or something. Would you not take offense in that? As Maggie said, Wicca, is a neo-pagan, organized, and legal religion that has its own structure as well as its own values, and I fail to see where it became such a terrible thing to be it. I do not wish to be told that a religion is superior to mine, or that i will be sent to hell because I do nto believe in something that someone else believes is right. I only wish to discuss my beliefs with all of you, and on the same lines, you with me. That is all.

kay
07-05-2004, 10:03 AM
[/quote] Yes, but just because I stated that I did not believe in Jesus, does not mean I should be judged to the point where someone says I am going to hell, on a count of not believing the same as them. As for being concerned for me, why? I have my own beliefs, and therefore my own spirituality, as well as my beliefs about where I shall go after death. I do not believe in a heaven or a hell, but I do not say I am concerned about you because the "goddess loves you and will open your eyes to herself" or something. Would you not take offense in that? As Maggie said, Wicca, is a neo-pagan, organized, and legal religion that has its own structure as well as its own values, and I fail to see where it became such a terrible thing to be it. I do not wish to be told that a religion is superior to mine, or that i will be sent to hell because I do nto believe in something that someone else believes is right. I only wish to discuss my beliefs with all of you, and on the same lines, you with me. That is all.[/quote]

You are the one who started this thread telling us about your religion, so why are you getting all bent out shape when we talk about ours? If we didn't care, we wouldn't respond. You seem to stand firm on the fact that do not believe in Jesus. Enough said in our book. And if you don't believe in Heaven or Hell then what are you worried about? All I asked in my original post was that you check it out before you close the door on Christianity. And no, I don't think anyone's religion is superior to anyone elses but I do know that my GOD is superiour over all.

Miss Mally
07-05-2004, 10:12 AM
The Judeo -Christian faith is not inclusive...there is no if ands or buts about it. You are either with God or against him. Rocin...there really is no discussing both religions without excepting this. You want us to make our religion something it is not...so that it is not offensive to you. I have not asked you to disavow alters and incantations so as to not to offend me.

Our faith clearly states that if you do not believe you will not make it to heaven and there is only one alternative. Whether you believe in Hell or not is really immaterial.

You say you do not want to change our beliefs and our faith...yet you insist that we must except yours. That would be changing our faith, as our faith says we must not except yours, condone it etc.

Art, if it does not matter what people believe...why even be a Christian?

The "witch" part is not the root of the problem here Art...it is the worshiping of other Gods...it is the worship of Bel, Bel-zabub, or Baal...that is most in conflict with our faith.

We as Christians are to be kind but we are not told that part of this kindness is a condoning of other religions and faiths. In fact our faith teaches us just the oposite. We are to correct false doctrines etc., we are to spread the Good News and part of that Good News is the explaination of what the consequenses are for non belief.

No one is going to get angry with Rocin or Maggie for not becoming a Christian. No one is here talking about an earthly condemnation. It is a condemnation they don't even believe in...so why should it bother them? it is a choice they make. I have yet to understand why Wiccan's have a problem with Christians saying they are the only ones getting to Heaven....when Wiccan's don't even believe in Heaven, because we believe in something they don't and we believe it is exclusive to those with our beliefs....we are suddenly concidered an "intollerance and bigoted religion" by almost every web sight I could find last night. Talk about someone saying...."Change your beliefs or I will lable you a Bigot and teach against you and yours".

kay
07-05-2004, 10:28 AM
Very well said Mally!

Art
07-05-2004, 10:53 AM
We as Christians are to be kind but we are not told that part of this kindness is a condoning of other religions and faiths. In fact our faith teaches us just the oposite. We are to correct false doctrines etc., we are to spread the Good News and part of that Good News is the explaination of what the consequenses are for non belief.

No one is going to get angry with Rocin or Maggie for not becoming a Christian. No one is here talking about an earthly condemnation. It is a condemnation they don't even believe in...so why should it bother them? it is a choice they make. I have yet to understand why Wiccan's have a problem with Christians saying they are the only ones getting to Heaven....when Wiccan's don't even believe in Heaven, because we believe in something they don't and we believe it is exclusive to those with our beliefs....we are suddenly concidered an "intollerance and bigoted religion" by almost every web sight I could find last night. Talk about someone saying...."Change your beliefs or I will lable you a Bigot and teach against you and yours".

Not one person here, other than yourself, has said that Wiccans have a problem with Christians saying they are the only ones getting to heaven. What I have heard from those whose posts indicate they favor Wicca as their religion is a doctrine of tolerance - live and let live. Not so of the Christian posts.
I am not concerned about what effect that doctrine will have on Wiccans. I am concerned about the effect that it will have on others who may be leaning toward the Christian faith. It sounds too much like the Islamic "kill the infidels" doctrine. And it makes me wonder how to reconcile "suffer not a witch to live" with "Thou shalt not kill".

What happened to "Just as I am"?

Miss Mally
07-05-2004, 11:03 AM
We as Christians are to be kind but we are not told that part of this kindness is a condoning of other religions and faiths. In fact our faith teaches us just the oposite. We are to correct false doctrines etc., we are to spread the Good News and part of that Good News is the explaination of what the consequenses are for non belief.

No one is going to get angry with Rocin or Maggie for not becoming a Christian. No one is here talking about an earthly condemnation. It is a condemnation they don't even believe in...so why should it bother them? it is a choice they make. I have yet to understand why Wiccan's have a problem with Christians saying they are the only ones getting to Heaven....when Wiccan's don't even believe in Heaven, because we believe in something they don't and we believe it is exclusive to those with our beliefs....we are suddenly concidered an "intollerance and bigoted religion" by almost every web sight I could find last night. Talk about someone saying...."Change your beliefs or I will lable you a Bigot and teach against you and yours".

Not one person here, other than yourself, has said that Wiccans have a problem with Christians saying they are the only ones getting to heaven. What I have heard from those whose posts indicate they favor Wicca as their religion is a doctrine of tolerance - live and let live. Not so of the Christian posts.
I am not concerned about what effect that doctrine will have on Wiccans. I am concerned about the effect that it will have on others who may be leaning toward the Christian faith. It sounds too much like the Islamic "kill the infidels" doctrine. And it makes me wonder how to reconcile "suffer not a witch to live" with "Thou shalt not kill".

What happened to "Just as I am"?

Art...if you will read really closely...I stated that where I got the impression they were not as tolerant as claimed...from web sights...everyone one them were anti Christian that I looked at last night. I didn't say a word about anyone on here...or saying that on this board.

Art...we can not do as the Catholics did...and include what ever belief just to get someone in the fold...We need to be honest with folks right up front...and let people know what is exceptable and what is not. God will handle the rest...either their eyes will be opened and their hearts pricked or their heart will be hardened. Some how this became a numbers game many years ago. We are told narrow is the gate and few will enter in. Just getting someone to believe in Christ is not enough Art...As Christ says..."there will be many who have done signs and taught in MY name... and I will say...depart from Me I knew you not." If someone is turned off by strict adherence to the scriptures and the teaching of Christ...maybe they just are not ment to be Christians, and while that is not "okay" it is also not a reason to try to dilute the scriptures over.

BigGunz
07-05-2004, 11:13 AM
Thanks Goalie and Rocin,

I had never known a more gentle, kinder, loving, tolerant person in all my life. I dont know much about wicca or that stuff and I never asked, I was accepted by here for who and what i am. And a few years ago a drunk driver took her life as I have told that story here before and I do belive that in the end that someone like her That God felt something for her as she was tryly a great person that good things came to her somehow somewaybecause of all the good and love she showed to those who ever came in contact with her or ever knew her.

kay
07-05-2004, 11:36 AM
I'm sorry for your loss BG.

Anonymous
07-05-2004, 11:43 AM
She wont be forgotten... you have given her life through your words. I am sorry for everything you lost. She sounds like a wonderful person.

Miss Mally
07-05-2004, 11:47 AM
Art...witchcraft is mentioned in the New Testament as well (and it is interesting that it is specifically mentioned to the Galations-those in present day Turkey-who were otherwise known as Celts.

Galatians 5:19-21

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Revelation 21:8 -
But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part [shall be] in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

Art...there are no if ands or buts about it. Christians and Wiccan's beliefs are at odds with one another. We can accept and condone in order to please men or we can spread the gospels in it's fullness as please God.

Anonymous
07-05-2004, 01:07 PM
Yes, but just because I stated that I did not believe in Jesus, does not mean I should be judged to the point where someone says I am going to hell, on a count of not believing the same as them. As for being concerned for me, why? I have my own beliefs, and therefore my own spirituality, as well as my beliefs about where I shall go after death. I do not believe in a heaven or a hell, but I do not say I am concerned about you because the "goddess loves you and will open your eyes to herself" or something. Would you not take offense in that? As Maggie said, Wicca, is a neo-pagan, organized, and legal religion that has its own structure as well as its own values, and I fail to see where it became such a terrible thing to be it. I do not wish to be told that a religion is superior to mine, or that i will be sent to hell because I do nto believe in something that someone else believes is right. I only wish to discuss my beliefs with all of you, and on the same lines, you with me. That is all.[/quote]

You are the one who started this thread telling us about your religion, so why are you getting all bent out shape when we talk about ours? If we didn't care, we wouldn't respond. You seem to stand firm on the fact that do not believe in Jesus. Enough said in our book. And if you don't believe in Heaven or Hell then what are you worried about? All I asked in my original post was that you check it out before you close the door on Christianity. And no, I don't think anyone's religion is superior to anyone elses but I do know that my GOD is superiour over all.[/quote]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Kay, I felt that you were doing more than talking about your religion, I felt that you were rather bringing it down upon me. Many times in this forum have I seen threads about catholic and christian religion and belief and I have not brought Wiccanism down up them. I have not tried nor suggested to try paganism before closing the door. Understand that I have been Wiccan all of my life. You probably grew up with your beliefs too, and I see that you are very passionate about them. I am extremely interested in learning more about Christianity, since I know very little, but I have the same right to talk of mine. I do not wish to argue of the origins and the past conflict. i do not wish to be Christian, as I am imprinted in my beliefs as you are of yours. Naturally, as humans, we expect our own beliefs to be correct. I am not asking to be made comfortable. I am just asking for the same respect of my spirituality that I give yours. Nothing more, nothing less. I know there is a conflict between our religions, there always have been. I do not believe in Jesus or the almighty god or the bible, you do not believe in the goddess, the rede or the law of three. However, if you look at Wiccan values and Christian values, Wiccan holidays and Christian holidays, you might find that we are not so different after all.

kay
07-05-2004, 01:36 PM
Kay, I felt that you were doing more than talking about your religion, I felt that you were rather bringing it down upon me. Many times in this forum have I seen threads about catholic and christian religion and belief and I have not brought Wiccanism down up them. I have not tried nor suggested to try paganism before closing the door. Understand that I have been Wiccan all of my life. You probably grew up with your beliefs too, and I see that you are very passionate about them. I am extremely interested in learning more about Christianity, since I know very little, but I have the same right to talk of mine. I do not wish to argue of the origins and the past conflict. i do not wish to be Christian, as I am imprinted in my beliefs as you are of yours. Naturally, as humans, we expect our own beliefs to be correct. I am not asking to be made comfortable. I am just asking for the same respect of my spirituality that I give yours. Nothing more, nothing less. I know there is a conflict between our religions, there always have been. I do not believe in Jesus or the almighty god or the bible, you do not believe in the goddess, the rede or the law of three. However, if you look at Wiccan values and Christian values, Wiccan holidays and Christian holidays, you might find that we are not so different after all.[/quote]

Rocin, I have friends that don't believe in Jesus. I may not agree with them but I care about them and pray for them. I am sorry if on a public post I try to convert you to Christianity. I certainally am not putting you down in any way because of your beliefs. But by being a Christian, we have been taught that there is a Heaven and a Hell. And believers go to Heaven and those who don't believe go to Hell. I believe this will all of my heart. I only care about your soul. I was raised Baptist and have switched converted to a non-denominational charasmatic church. I did change in my beliefs after I searched what else was out there. Thats all I ask of you, please study Christianity and see what it is all about. And about your last statement, based on the fact that you do not believe in God/Jesus/Holy Spirit, no rocin, we are nothing alike.

Miss Mally
07-05-2004, 01:58 PM
I have alway been a little amused by the thought than everyone should not believe their religion is the "right" one or the "best" one. That probably sounds a little condesending. Sorry.

If I did not believe Christianity was the right way and the only way...I would not be a Christian. I was brought up in the faith...but was also exposed to other religions as well. I don't even follow the main line of Christianity..which I believe has often taken a more liberal view and incorporated aspects of other beliefs or has watered down Christianity.

Many people it seems anymore...from what ever religion...take the bits and pieces they like and chunk the rest. I kinda look at it like a marrage...there are somethings about marrage that ain't always fun, or pleasurable or even comfortable. Marrage means giving up living for ones self and becoming a different person, accepting a different life style and giving all to the other. It is a total commitment...or it doesn't last. Often there are things that God requires of us that are not "fun or comfortable". In our total commitment to him...we must give up our worldly self...we must change, become a different person, accept a different life style and give all to him. If we are unwilling to do this in a marrage there is little point in getting married...if we are unwilling to do this in our commitment to God...there is little point to becoming a Christian at all.

I pretty well view all religions this way....either be or don't be...immerse yourself in it fully don't just dip your toes in or sprinkle it on yourself. Other wise...and this of course is my opinion...you are not really commiting yourself to anything but looking for something to fullfil self and to be selfserving.

Anonymous
07-05-2004, 03:08 PM
Please explain, Miss Mally, why I am not fully commiting myself to my religion! Oh, and try not to fully twist around the meaning of my posts too much please! Understand that I have commited myself to my religion since I was born! Please also try not to be snippy in your answer!

Miss Mally
07-05-2004, 03:14 PM
Please explain, Miss Mally, why I am not fully commiting myself to my religion! Oh, and try not to fully twist around the meaning of my posts too much please! Understand that I have commited myself to my religion since I was born! Please also try not to be snippy in your answer!

I was not directing that post to you Rocin....I wasn't directing it at anyone in particular. Just stating how I view the situation of religion and people in general. If the truth be known...if you look for the symbolism of water...you will find who I was probably being most critical of. :D

I have no idea of your commitment...I don't know that much about what you personally believe and do etc. I was not basing my post on any particular thing anyone said here...on either religion.

Anonymous
07-05-2004, 04:00 PM
Well whoever you criptically are targeting, it is surely not your place to tell anyone that they are not commited to there own religion. You are Christian and it is your place to spread the "good news" of god. That is fine with me, I do not really care. I understand that you do not approve of the gods that I worship as well. It seems as though you are twisting my words and making them mean something that they arent. I suppose I take it personally when someone tells me to explore Christianity. Your god would not let you explore Wicca, would he? You can be critical of paganism, you can twist my words around, you have that right. To be critical of whether a person is commiting themselves to a religion, without knowing many of the details, I believe is wrong. People have the right to combine elements of religion to suit what they believe. People do not need to follow a religion based on someone's ideas one thousand years ago. You are right, you are a Christian, and you can believe that your religion is the right way, as do I, and you can preach your beliefs to others, im not here to tell you what you can and cant do. But one religion, any religion, is surely not the only way, or the best way. It really depends a lot upon perspective. I suppse that we cannot change each other, even though some of us wish to do so. Maybe it is because someone cares about us and is so passionate that they wish to "save" us. Religion is a hard thing to talk about, the reason for that being the diversity of belief. Mally, we will probably never think alike, like it or not.

Miss Mally
07-05-2004, 04:36 PM
Well whoever you criptically are targeting, it is surely not your place to tell anyone that they are not commited to there own religion. You are Christian and it is your place to spread the "good news" of god. That is fine with me, I do not really care. I understand that you do not approve of the gods that I worship as well. It seems as though you are twisting my words and making them mean something that they arent. I suppose I take it personally when someone tells me to explore Christianity. Your god would not let you explore Wicca, would he? You can be critical of paganism, you can twist my words around, you have that right. To be critical of whether a person is commiting themselves to a religion, without knowing many of the details, I believe is wrong. People have the right to combine elements of religion to suit what they believe. People do not need to follow a religion based on someone's ideas one thousand years ago. You are right, you are a Christian, and you can believe that your religion is the right way, as do I, and you can preach your beliefs to others, im not here to tell you what you can and cant do. But one religion, any religion, is surely not the only way, or the best way. It really depends a lot upon perspective. I suppse that we cannot change each other, even though some of us wish to do so. Maybe it is because someone cares about us and is so passionate that they wish to "save" us. Religion is a hard thing to talk about, the reason for that being the diversity of belief. Mally, we will probably never think alike, like it or not.

Okay...take for example...the monks who accepted the pagan rituals...incorportating them into the catholic church. This is in direct conflict with the teachings of the scripture. I find it very hard to expect people to have total faith in scripture when those teaching it obviously don't. This was part of the point I was making. You took this all way to personal.

I don't really see where I have twisted your words...the only comment that I have made about you personally was in reference to "your God". The rest of my posts were of either a historical perspective or in pointing out the differences and conflicts between our two beliefs. It was nothing personal.


I didn't tell you to explore Christianity...someone else did. I leave that up to you. I don't believe God expects ignorance. Do I think he has a problem with my knowledge of Pagan religions...no...because my faith is strong. Would it be a problem for some to study the history of Paganism...if their faith was weak and they could be seduced by it...yes. Having knowledge of others god's is not a sin...it is the worshiping those other gods that we are forbidden to do.

See...I do have faith that there is just one way...one path. If I didn't...I would not be a Christian.

MiraculousMutha
07-05-2004, 04:53 PM
I, as a "pagan Baptist", am disheartened and disappointed by the lack of tolerance displayed by some other Christians. For a person to tell someone else that they will go to hell because their beliefs don't coincide with his/hers goes against the grain for me. And I'm sure that attitude and lack of tolerance for others has and will continue to "turn off" young people who are in the process of making up their minds about their religious beliefs. Who are we to judge?
Excellent!

Anonymous
07-05-2004, 04:55 PM
Well whoever you criptically are targeting, it is surely not your place to tell anyone that they are not commited to there own religion. You are Christian and it is your place to spread the "good news" of god. That is fine with me, I do not really care. I understand that you do not approve of the gods that I worship as well. It seems as though you are twisting my words and making them mean something that they arent. I suppose I take it personally when someone tells me to explore Christianity. Your god would not let you explore Wicca, would he? You can be critical of paganism, you can twist my words around, you have that right. To be critical of whether a person is commiting themselves to a religion, without knowing many of the details, I believe is wrong. People have the right to combine elements of religion to suit what they believe. People do not need to follow a religion based on someone's ideas one thousand years ago. You are right, you are a Christian, and you can believe that your religion is the right way, as do I, and you can preach your beliefs to others, im not here to tell you what you can and cant do. But one religion, any religion, is surely not the only way, or the best way. It really depends a lot upon perspective. I suppse that we cannot change each other, even though some of us wish to do so. Maybe it is because someone cares about us and is so passionate that they wish to "save" us. Religion is a hard thing to talk about, the reason for that being the diversity of belief. Mally, we will probably never think alike, like it or not.

Okay...take for example...the monks who accepted the pagan rituals...incorportating them into the catholic church. This is in direct conflict with the teachings of the scripture. I find it very hard to expect people to have total faith in scripture when those teaching it obviously don't. This was part of the point I was making. You took this all way to personal.

I don't really see where I have twisted your words...the only comment that I have made about you personally was in reference to "your God". The rest of my posts were of either a historical perspective or in pointing out the differences and conflicts between our two beliefs. It was nothing personal.


I didn't tell you to explore Christianity...someone else did. I leave that up to you. I don't believe God expects ignorance. Do I think he has a problem with my knowledge of Pagan religions...no...because my faith is strong. Would it be a problem for some to study the history of Paganism...if their faith was weak and they could be seduced by it...yes. Having knowledge of others god's is not a sin...it is the worshiping those other gods that we are forbidden to do.

See...I do have faith that there is just one way...one path. If I didn't...I would not be a Christian. Is there a problem with people turning to paganism Mally? You say it would be a problem for some to study the history of paganism and if there faith was weak they could be seduced by it. What do you mean by "seduced?" Perhaps inspired would be a better word. Both our religions, though paganism is not highly respected by many, are respectable. Is faith's only boundary on the borders of Christianity? Wiccans have faith too, strong faith. I agree that if faith is weak someone may study a religion and become inspired with it. I do not think there is a problem with being inspired by paganism, especially if you are in need of spirituality, or perhaps they would be drawn to Christianity. You believe that it is against god to become pagan and worship pagan gods. That is fine. I am failing to see why it is a problem with being pagan and why you used the word "seduced."

Miss Mally
07-05-2004, 05:16 PM
Well whoever you criptically are targeting, it is surely not your place to tell anyone that they are not commited to there own religion. You are Christian and it is your place to spread the "good news" of god. That is fine with me, I do not really care. I understand that you do not approve of the gods that I worship as well. It seems as though you are twisting my words and making them mean something that they arent. I suppose I take it personally when someone tells me to explore Christianity. Your god would not let you explore Wicca, would he? You can be critical of paganism, you can twist my words around, you have that right. To be critical of whether a person is commiting themselves to a religion, without knowing many of the details, I believe is wrong. People have the right to combine elements of religion to suit what they believe. People do not need to follow a religion based on someone's ideas one thousand years ago. You are right, you are a Christian, and you can believe that your religion is the right way, as do I, and you can preach your beliefs to others, im not here to tell you what you can and cant do. But one religion, any religion, is surely not the only way, or the best way. It really depends a lot upon perspective. I suppse that we cannot change each other, even though some of us wish to do so. Maybe it is because someone cares about us and is so passionate that they wish to "save" us. Religion is a hard thing to talk about, the reason for that being the diversity of belief. Mally, we will probably never think alike, like it or not.

Okay...take for example...the monks who accepted the pagan rituals...incorportating them into the catholic church. This is in direct conflict with the teachings of the scripture. I find it very hard to expect people to have total faith in scripture when those teaching it obviously don't. This was part of the point I was making. You took this all way to personal.

I don't really see where I have twisted your words...the only comment that I have made about you personally was in reference to "your God". The rest of my posts were of either a historical perspective or in pointing out the differences and conflicts between our two beliefs. It was nothing personal.


I didn't tell you to explore Christianity...someone else did. I leave that up to you. I don't believe God expects ignorance. Do I think he has a problem with my knowledge of Pagan religions...no...because my faith is strong. Would it be a problem for some to study the history of Paganism...if their faith was weak and they could be seduced by it...yes. Having knowledge of others god's is not a sin...it is the worshiping those other gods that we are forbidden to do.

See...I do have faith that there is just one way...one path. If I didn't...I would not be a Christian. Is there a problem with people turning to paganism Mally? You say it would be a problem for some to study the history of paganism and if there faith was weak they could be seduced by it. What do you mean by "seduced?" Perhaps inspired would be a better word. Both our religions, though paganism is not highly respected by many, are respectable. Is faith's only boundary on the borders of Christianity? Wiccans have faith too, strong faith. I agree that if faith is weak someone may study a religion and become inspired with it. I do not think there is a problem with being inspired by paganism, especially if you are in need of spirituality, or perhaps they would be drawn to Christianity. You believe that it is against god to become pagan and worship pagan gods. That is fine. I am failing to see why it is a problem with being pagan and why you used the word "seduced."

You made the statement that God would not want Christians to take a look a Wicca (paraphrased)...so I was responding to how I believe God would view that.

The problem for Christians with being a pagan is that God tells us not to worship other Gods. Our God is a jealous God. He says so himself. If we do not want our spirit our soul to be seperated from him...we must do his will.

You feel that by my use of the word faith...means you have none...that was not what I ment. Did your use of spirituality infer that Christians have none? The Spirit is part of God...The Spirit is our interceder with God...The Spirit interprets for us. The spirit fills us.

I have never said your gods do not exist...but you on the other hand have stated you do not believe in God.

Anonymous
07-05-2004, 05:19 PM
Yes but stating that I do not believe in god does not mean I say he does not exist.

Miss Mally
07-05-2004, 05:23 PM
Yes but stating that I do not believe in god does not mean I say he does not exist.

Okay...this is semantics then. Correct me if I am wrong...you believe he exists...but you choose not to believe he is the God to follow?

kay
07-05-2004, 05:38 PM
Yes but stating that I do not believe in god does not mean I say he does not exist.

HUH?????????????????????Either you do believe or you don't believe.
YES or NO??

Miss Mally
07-05-2004, 05:52 PM
Yes but stating that I do not believe in god does not mean I say he does not exist.

HUH?????????????????????Either you do believe or you don't believe.
YES or NO??

Kay this is accually not quite so...some believe he exists...but do not believe he is the Creator God...some believe he exists and is the Creator God...but that His way is not the only way to salvation...some believe He is the Creator God and that he is the way but choose not to follow his way regardless. Then there are those that believe and choose to follow His will.

The fallen angels and other gods even believe and acknowledge God is the Creator God and that Jesus is the Son of God, but have chosen seperation. They believe because they were there and seen it all for themselves.

Anonymous
07-05-2004, 06:15 PM
Yes but stating that I do not believe in god does not mean I say he does not exist.

Okay...this is semantics then. Correct me if I am wrong...you believe he exists...but you choose not to believe he is the God to follow? Mally I did not say that. I am just correcting you to the fact that I did not say that your god does not exist. There is no way to know that. I do not believe he exists, but I do not know that he does not exist for sure.

Miss Mally
07-05-2004, 06:18 PM
Yes but stating that I do not believe in god does not mean I say he does not exist.

Okay...this is semantics then. Correct me if I am wrong...you believe he exists...but you choose not to believe he is the God to follow? Mally I did not say that. I am just correcting you to the fact that I did not say that your god does not exist. There is no way to no that. I do not believe he exists, but I do not know that he does not exist for sure.

Okay...thanks for clearing that up.

Goalie
07-05-2004, 07:11 PM
Just really, really, really curious... Mally, are Catholics going to hell too?

RogueEconomist
07-05-2004, 07:41 PM
Yes but stating that I do not believe in god does not mean I say he does not exist.

Okay...this is semantics then. Correct me if I am wrong...you believe he exists...but you choose not to believe he is the God to follow? Mally I did not say that. I am just correcting you to the fact that I did not say that your god does not exist. There is no way to no that. I do not believe he exists, but I do not know that he does not exist for sure.

What if you are wrong Rocin2 ?

Anonymous
07-05-2004, 07:54 PM
Yes but stating that I do not believe in god does not mean I say he does not exist.

Okay...this is semantics then. Correct me if I am wrong...you believe he exists...but you choose not to believe he is the God to follow? Mally I did not say that. I am just correcting you to the fact that I did not say that your god does not exist. There is no way to no that. I do not believe he exists, but I do not know that he does not exist for sure.

What if you are wrong Rocin2 ? Again, there is know way to know that. I believe what I believe is right. However, as you know, there is no way to prove that I am right. Therefore, I do not know that I am wrong either. I believe what I believe is right.

Miss Mally
07-05-2004, 08:06 PM
Just really, really, really curious... Mally, are Catholics going to hell too?

I think on that issue...the scripture speaks of it


1 Timothy 4:1-16
1 But the Spirit saith expressly, that in later times some shall fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons,2 through the hypocrisy of men that speak lies, branded in their own conscience as with a hot iron;3 forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by them that believe and know the truth.4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it be received with thanksgiving:5 for it is sanctified through the word of God and prayer

krispy
07-06-2004, 02:05 PM
Just really, really, really curious... Mally, are Catholics going to hell too?

I think on that issue...the scripture speaks of it


1 Timothy 4:1-16
1 But the Spirit saith expressly, that in later times some shall fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons,2 through the hypocrisy of men that speak lies, branded in their own conscience as with a hot iron;3 forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by them that believe and know the truth.4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it be received with thanksgiving:5 for it is sanctified through the word of God and prayer


How does this answer the question at hand, Mally? Can you decode where it talks about Catholicism in this passage?


OH and to the WiCcAnS:

If you don't believe in hell? Why does it offend you when someone tells you that is where you are going? I would think you wouldn't care. But thats just me!

Anonymous
07-06-2004, 02:11 PM
Well, Krispy I wouldnt care. However, telling someone they are going to hell because they are pagan, even though I dont believe in hell, is just like telling someone their beliefs are completely wrong and they should be punished for believing in that way. No, krispy, I dont care if they think I am going to hell, I just dont like the implication that I should be punished for my religion because it is it is not Christian. Understand?

Miss Mally
07-06-2004, 02:18 PM
Well, Krispy I wouldnt care. However, telling someone they are going to hell because they are pagan, even though I dont believe in hell, is just like telling someone their beliefs are completely wrong and they should be punished for believing in that way. No, krispy, I dont care if they think I am going to hell, I just dont like the implication that I should be punished for my religion because it is it is not Christian. Understand?

Rocin...don't worry so much about what other people think. People can't punish your soul.

Miss Mally
07-06-2004, 02:21 PM
Just really, really, really curious... Mally, are Catholics going to hell too?

I think on that issue...the scripture speaks of it


1 Timothy 4:1-16
1 But the Spirit saith expressly, that in later times some shall fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons,2 through the hypocrisy of men that speak lies, branded in their own conscience as with a hot iron;3 forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by them that believe and know the truth.4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it be received with thanksgiving:5 for it is sanctified through the word of God and prayer


How does this answer the question at hand, Mally? Can you decode where it talks about Catholicism in this passage?


it doesn't specify any one religious group Krispy...but it applies to any group that takes on the doctrines of demons and/or to those who forbid others to marry or eat meat.

Think about...religious holidays, Mary, priests and lent. ;)

krispy
07-06-2004, 02:25 PM
So you're saying....'yes' Catholics are going to hell????

Anonymous
07-06-2004, 02:30 PM
Well, Krispy I wouldnt care. However, telling someone they are going to hell because they are pagan, even though I dont believe in hell, is just like telling someone their beliefs are completely wrong and they should be punished for believing in that way. No, krispy, I dont care if they think I am going to hell, I just dont like the implication that I should be punished for my religion because it is it is not Christian. Understand?

Rocin...don't worry so much about what other people think. People can't punish your soul. oh, so now YOUR giving ME advice? Now your saying my soul isnt going to be punished? I thought I was going to hell on a bicycle... :wink:

krispy
07-06-2004, 02:33 PM
Well, Krispy I wouldnt care. However, telling someone they are going to hell because they are pagan, even though I dont believe in hell, is just like telling someone their beliefs are completely wrong and they should be punished for believing in that way. No, krispy, I dont care if they think I am going to hell, I just dont like the implication that I should be punished for my religion because it is it is not Christian. Understand?

I completely Understand! Thanks for explaining!

Miss Mally
07-06-2004, 02:34 PM
So you're saying....'yes' Catholics are going to hell????

I am not saying anything Krispy....the Bible speaks to this issue...not me.

krispy
07-06-2004, 02:36 PM
Nobody asked you what the bible said. They asked you what you thought?
Not everybody believes in every word of the bible, therefor words from the bible cannot serve as proof unless you are debating a topic with Christians alone who all collectively believe the bible to be fact.

Miss Mally
07-06-2004, 02:37 PM
Well, Krispy I wouldnt care. However, telling someone they are going to hell because they are pagan, even though I dont believe in hell, is just like telling someone their beliefs are completely wrong and they should be punished for believing in that way. No, krispy, I dont care if they think I am going to hell, I just dont like the implication that I should be punished for my religion because it is it is not Christian. Understand?

Rocin...don't worry so much about what other people think. People can't punish your soul. oh, so now YOUR giving ME advice? Now your saying my soul isnt going to be punished? I thought I was going to hell on a bicycle... :wink:

hahahahahaha People can't truely touch your soul...only God can. I don't think God lets people have bicycles there. :D

Anonymous
07-06-2004, 02:40 PM
Yeah, god wont touch MY soul. Only the earth mother can do that, but, of course, only if I ask it of her. Oh yeah.... I thought "the devil" was the "ruler of hell."

Miss Mally
07-06-2004, 02:42 PM
Nobody asked you what the bible said. They asked you what you thought?
Not everybody believes in every word of the bible, therefor words from the bible cannot serve as proof unless you are debating a topic with Christians alone who all collectively believe the bible to be fact.

All I know or think I know and all my beliefs on the issue comes from the Bible. What ever the bible says...is what I believe. I never claimed I had proof...I wasn't asked for proof. What is the proof of faith? I was asked what I thought, and I said I would let the scriptures answer that. All Christians are called to follow the teachings of the bible.

I don't think any of the non-Christians asked the question...Goalie did...so I answered him using the bible...which he believes in as well.

krispy
07-06-2004, 02:58 PM
Well I do believe in the Bible, but I DO NOT believe Catholics are going to hell. I also don't believe that we should try and decifer who is or isnt going to hell....because ultimately that is up to God.

Miss Mally
07-06-2004, 03:25 PM
Well I do believe in the Bible, but I DO NOT believe Catholics are going to hell. I also don't believe that we should try and decifer who is or isnt going to hell....because ultimately that is up to God.

That is exactly why I am not speaking to that issue and let the scriptures do it.

We are told though that we are to use the scriptures to correct those who have went astray.

Anonymous
07-06-2004, 08:08 PM
Indeed, as a Master Mason, Past Master of my local lodge, previously Christian, one time minister of the Gospel and presently pagan individual, I find all of this not only interesting, but highly entertaining.
:lol:

... few ancient Celtic beliefs, deity structure, and seasonal days of celebration with modern material from ceremonial magick, the Masonic Order, etc.... Some Masons may find it interesting, if they didn't already know...that there practices helped to "flesh out" the Wicca practices.[/quote]

alltherage
07-06-2004, 09:05 PM
i am new to wicca is anyone willing to help
pm me please

RogueEconomist
07-06-2004, 11:00 PM
i am new to wicca is anyone willing to help
pm me please

Here is some help AlltheRage, run the opposite direction as fast as you can, wicca will lead only to Perdition

Anonymous
07-06-2004, 11:11 PM
Take your close minded bigotism and keep it to yourself! That is all I have to say...

Miss Mally
07-06-2004, 11:12 PM
Take your close minded bigotism and keep it to yourself! That is all I have to say...

Rocin...this is a message board where all have a right to post their opinions. No one has told you to keep yours to yourself....please don't tell others they must be silent.

Anonymous
07-06-2004, 11:14 PM
Maybe you should try being silent for once, Mally. I was merely telling him that I think he should keep his bigotism to himself. He doesnt have to if he doesnt want ot Mally! Yeah, I have the right to post my opinions tot, however much you do not like that.

Miss Mally
07-06-2004, 11:20 PM
Maybe you should try being silent for once, Mally. I was merely telling him that I think he should keep his bigotism to himself. He doesnt have to if he doesnt want ot Mally!

I will not be silent.

Main Entry: big·ot
Pronunciation: 'bi-g&t
Function: noun

: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices


I suppose many on this forum could be concidered the name you called...as many are obstinate about their opinions.

I would say you are pretty obstinate about your beliefs.

Anonymous
07-06-2004, 11:28 PM
Maybe you should try being silent for once, Mally. I was merely telling him that I think he should keep his bigotism to himself. He doesnt have to if he doesnt want ot Mally!

I will not be silent.

Main Entry: big·ot
Pronunciation: 'bi-g&t
Function: noun

: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices


I suppose many on this forum could be concidered the name you called...as many are obstinate about their opinions.

I would say you are pretty obstinate about your beliefs. Mally...Mally, Mally, Mally, Mally... Just put a sock in it! Do you have to get into every situation and completely ruin the purpose of the original post! All I wanted to do was talk about it! TALK ABOUT IT! There is no way that that could be any clearer. You brought me to this point. PUT A SOCK IN IT!

Blessed Be and merry part...

P.S Im only accepting of people who accept me... and that is not you...

Miss Mally
07-06-2004, 11:33 PM
Maybe you should try being silent for once, Mally. I was merely telling him that I think he should keep his bigotism to himself. He doesnt have to if he doesnt want ot Mally!

I will not be silent.

Main Entry: big·ot
Pronunciation: 'bi-g&t
Function: noun

: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices


I suppose many on this forum could be concidered the name you called...as many are obstinate about their opinions.

I would say you are pretty obstinate about your beliefs. Mally...Mally, Mally, Mally, Mally... Just put a sock in it! Do you have to get into every situation and completely ruin the purpose of the original post! All I wanted to do was talk about it! TALK ABOUT IT! There is no way that that could be any clearer. You brought me to this point. PUT A SOCK IN IT!

Blessed Be and merry part...

P.S Im only accepting of people who accept me... and that is not you...

I accept everyone...that doesn't mean I have to agree with them...or accept their beliefs or even like their beliefs.

What is more Rocin...i really like you. I am a bit disappointed that you got your britches in such a bunch to the point that you can't have a discussion with people that disagree with you without deciding you can no long except them or that you no longer can like them.

Anonymous
07-06-2004, 11:34 PM
I think, Mally, that you have had your britches in a bunch for the past 50 years.

Miss Mally
07-06-2004, 11:41 PM
I think, Mally, that you have had your britches in a bunch for the past 50 years.

you give me credit for having wisdom beyond my years. I ain't anywhere close to 50. lol

RogueEconomist
07-06-2004, 11:42 PM
Maybe you should try being silent for once, Mally. I was merely telling him that I think he should keep his bigotism to himself. He doesnt have to if he doesnt want ot Mally! Yeah, I have the right to post my opinions tot, however much you do not like that.

rocin2 Your absolutly totaly right when it comes to religion I am a bigot, big time !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NOUN: One who is strongly partial to one's own group, RELIGION, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

When it comes to the Christian religion I am guilty of the above. Keep it to myself, mmm not very likely. The stakes are too high, if I am right those that are not saved go with the devil to hell. If I see someone about to stick a butter knife into an electricle outlet I am likely to tell them they are making a big mistake.
One of us is right and one is wrong. we both feel we are right and the other wrong. Time will shed light on which has chosen the correct path.
I must say that you are not luke warm. Our Christian God tells us to be hot or cold not luke warm. I am sure that being diametricly opposed that I will grait on your nerves some more. Nothing personal

Anonymous
07-06-2004, 11:42 PM
I think, Mally, that you have had your britches in a bunch for the past 50 years.

you give me credit for having wisdom beyond my years. I ain't anywhere close to 50. lol Should I add a few years then?

Miss Mally
07-06-2004, 11:48 PM
I think, Mally, that you have had your britches in a bunch for the past 50 years.

you give me credit for having wisdom beyond my years. I ain't anywhere close to 50. lol Should I add a few years then?

Go ahead...you wouldn't be the first. Jen thought I was an old lady too. :D

Anonymous
07-06-2004, 11:55 PM
Go to bed Mally! Do us all a favor!

Miss Mally
07-06-2004, 11:58 PM
Go to bed Mally! Do us all a favor!

why that is the second time tonight you have suggested such....I just got started on my DP...I can't possibly go to bed before it is finished. lol

Anonymous
07-07-2004, 12:53 AM
Everyone is getting so testy... it must be the late hour.
Stick a sock in it Roc? What a hoot. Just what is "it" and how can you be sure a sock will fit? Is that a tube sock or just one of those little low cut ankle kind? *LOL* Sorry, I can't really get into this sock discussion without clarification. :D

As for the post about running the other way, I can't disagree more, but rather than reply with a caustic rebuttal, I just sent the help that was requested. I hope the person will think about it, weigh it out and ultimately make their own decision. Since Western civilization is completely permeated with Christian doctrine I don't see what it can hurt to give people another avenue and let them chose for themselves. Many like myself were raised Christian, very, very Christian and it's just not for us.

Now, on to what I started this post to say. Earlier you all talked about horned gods of numerous names and related to various world religions. I looked up some statues of Moses and if I didn't know better (and yes the text does specify that they are "rays of light") I would say that Moses looks like he has horns in these statues.

http://www2.yarden.ac.il/bloss/pro2000/kaduriel/moses/eartview.htm

These are not the only depictions of a human leader with horns. Indeed it is the feeling of at least some historians that ancient peoples depicted their leaders and "gods" as being horned because it was associated with a position of authority, power or supremacy. It is altogether logical that this would have been the conclusion of people who lived close to nature and who recognized that the deer with the largest antlers was indeed the dominant animal. Just a thought. Talk among yourselves. I will give you a subject.

"I have bigger antlers than you." :lol:

Pond
07-07-2004, 07:38 AM
Indeed, as a Master Mason, Past Master of my local lodge, previously Christian, one time minister of the Gospel and presently pagan individual, I find all of this not only interesting, but highly entertaining.
:lol:

... few ancient Celtic beliefs, deity structure, and seasonal days of celebration with modern material from ceremonial magick, the Masonic Order, etc.... Some Masons may find it interesting, if they didn't already know...that there practices helped to "flesh out" the Wicca practices.[/quote]

When you say that you are previously a christian ,then in my words you are not any of the things that you say that you are .. A Mason believes in God .. A minister believes in God ... So you have always been a pagan .. You know not him ...

krispy
07-07-2004, 08:35 AM
does anyone know a link where I could read about Masons?
My late Granddad was a Mason, and I've never really understood what that meant....other than that is who were the ball bearers at his funeral.

Thank you much!!!!
~Krispy~

Pond
07-07-2004, 10:35 AM
does anyone know a link where I could read about Masons?
My late Granddad was a Mason, and I've never really understood what that meant....other than that is who were the ball bearers at his funeral.

Thank you much!!!!
~Krispy~

Krispy, there are many sites to read on Masons. I have "ask jeeves "on my computer and there are lots of sites on there.
Masons have always been deemed as something not Godly by some and I believe it is out of Fear and Hate for something that is not understood. I can`t give you any answers for I am not a Mason but I do know that God is the center of it all ..
When someone wants to brag about being a Mason and then turn around and say they do not believe in God , I think is wrong.. A man can not be a freemason and not believe in God..I guess they could play like they were .. :)

Gearldean
07-07-2004, 10:39 AM
does anyone know a link where I could read about Masons?...

This is a place to start, Krispy.
http://web.mit.edu/dryfoo/Masonry/

krispy
07-07-2004, 12:08 PM
Thank you so much! I have read a few of the articles in that link....
and have found them very interesting.
My Granddad and I were never very close because by the time
I was born...he was already hard of hearing and very dependent
on my Grandma. He died last Christmas, and I regret not getting
to know him on a more personal level.

Miss Mally
07-07-2004, 12:35 PM
http://www.freedomdomain.com/tpainefm.htm

a copy of an artical written by Thomas Paine. Just thought it was interesting...not saying I agree with all that he has said.

Anonymous
07-07-2004, 02:32 PM
does anyone know a link where I could read about Masons?
My late Granddad was a Mason, and I've never really understood what that meant....other than that is who were the ball bearers at his funeral.

Thank you much!!!!
~Krispy~

There are many places online to learn about Freemasons. Out of respect for your Grandfather, I would probably not just start browsing at random. If you want to know Masonry as your Grandfather knew it, I would suggest checking out the Grand Lodge site for the state in which he was Mason. If you know what state that was, I will try to get you a URL for that Grand Lodge. Also, if you know where he was a member, it might be interesting to visit his lodge. As the Secretary about his Masonic history. When and where he took his degrees. What offices he held. What charities he may have worked to support. I am sure you already know your Granddad was a good man, but you may find out many more interesting and admirable things about him. It can be as interesting as tracing one's family tree. Good luck to you in your search. LET THERE BE LIGHT !

Pond
07-07-2004, 02:43 PM
Krispy... read about an Albert Pike and then go to .....

www.masonicinfo.com/taxil.htm

Pond
07-07-2004, 02:50 PM
does anyone know a link where I could read about Masons?
My late Granddad was a Mason, and I've never really understood what that meant....other than that is who were the ball bearers at his funeral.

Thank you much!!!!
~Krispy~

There are many places online to learn about Freemasons. Out of respect for your Grandfather, I would probably not just start browsing at random. If you want to know Masonry as your Grandfather knew it, I would suggest checking out the Grand Lodge site for the state in which he was Mason. If you know what state that was, I will try to get you a URL for that Grand Lodge. Also, if you know where he was a member, it might be interesting to visit his lodge. As the Secretary about his Masonic history. When and where he took his degrees. What offices he held. What charities he may have worked to support. I am sure you already know your Granddad was a good man, but you may find out many more interesting and admirable things about him. It can be as interesting as tracing one's family tree. Good luck to you in your search. LET THERE BE LIGHT !

I have been reading all afternoon ,learning more than I knew ...I might have been wrong about what I wrote to you (about you ).. A little light never hurt anyone ..I even read about that light .. :lol:

Anonymous
07-07-2004, 03:12 PM
When someone wants to brag about being a Mason and then turn around and say they do not believe in God , I think is wrong.. A man can not be a freemason and not believe in God..I guess they could play like they were .. :)[/quote]

Why Pond, I can't help but think that you were directing those comments toward little old me. :wink: Did I say I did not believe in God? No. I said I was not a Christian. As a Mason, I will tell you that there is no mandate for a man to be a Christian to be a Mason. Indeed, a rule such as that would preclude the many outstanding Muslim and Jewish brothers that serve the Brotherhood of Masonry. You are making a fundamental mistake in terminology. To say that someone does not believe in God "by your definition" is not the same as saying that they do not believe in God by their own definition. Indeed I do believe in God, with every thread of my being. However, I am not a Christian. The same can be said of any sincere Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, etc, etc, etc. Christianity does not hold a pattent on the word "God", nor does any other religion. In fact it may surprise you to find that God is not a member of any of these religions. Rather, God is the focus of ALL of them. People of all nations, creeds and time periods have strived to express what they believed about God and to help others reach God. Some wrote the various holy books of the different world religions and some passed their beliefs down in oral traditions. That is why we have so many different religions, sects and denominations within each of them. No one can seem to agree about the details of religion. That is where Masonry steps in. Masonry is not a religion. It is a brotherhood, a fraternity. The only requirement of a Mason is that he express a belief in, and accountability to a "Supreme Being", without which no oath he takes would be binding. Masonry unites men of all religions so that they can work for good causes. Masonry highlights and celebrates our similarities without marring us down in our differences. In lodge, we speak of God in general terms such as The Grand Architect of the Universe, or simply, The Creator. However, details and divisions that would destroy the harmony of the lodge are not allowed to be discussed. Two of those things are politics and religion. I know that might not set well with some fundamentalists who can't separate their mandate for evangelism from every other part of their life, but that is the way it has to be so little crippled and burned children get the care they need and we don't sit around arguing and wasting our valuable time.

So yes, a Mason MUST believe in God. No Atheist can be a Mason. But a Jew can, a Muslim can, a Pagan can and of course a Christian can.

One more thing. Please don't think that because I am not a Christian that somehow must mean that I oppose Christianity.
I do not oppose Christianity. Most of my friends and family are Christians. If that is what works for you, then more power to you. I applaud anyone who sincerely practices any religion that recognizes one of the many variation of the "Golden Rule". What I do oppose however is hypocracy and intolerance, whether it is coming from a Pagan, a Christian or whatever someone professes to be.

Pond
07-07-2004, 03:28 PM
Do I have to say that I am wrong ?? I would like to say that a little light never hurt anyone .. Please don`t make me beg ... :lol:

Anonymous
07-07-2004, 03:57 PM
Krispy... read about an Albert Pike and then go to .....

www.masonicinfo.com/taxil.htm

Krispy, this site is exactly why I said I would not just start reading at random. There are lots of sites out there that look like they are giving unbiased information about Freemasonry, but on closer examination they are not. A lot of them are outright slanderous of the brotherhood.

This is why I said, if you want to know Freemasonry as your Grandfather did, check out his lodge, and check out his Grand Lodge. I guarantee in neither will you find any "luciferian doctrine". What you will find are good men working together for the good of the brotherhood and the good of mankind. The most well known group of Masons are the Shriners. Not all masons go on to be Shriners, but all Shriners must be members in good standing of a local Masonic Lodge. These men work selflessly and tirelessly for the care of sick and injured children and there are no cash registers in Shriner hospitals either. ALL THE CARE IS GIVEN FREE OF CHARGE. Now I ask you, is that the work of a dark and evil entity? no.

While the Shriners are the most well known of the appendant bodies of Masonry, there are many others, less well known, but no less charitable. There is the Order of the Eastern Star, made up of Masons and their female famlily members and wives. There are York Rite Masons, Scottish Rite Masons and an endless procession of other groups. In each State or Grand Jurisdiction, the brothers and sisters of the various appendant bodies work for unity and charity.

That is why I suggested that you look into the state in which your Granddad was a Mason. They can tell you what groups he was a member of and what charities those groups sponsor in that state. That way you will know what your Granddad stood for and worked for. Even if all he did was pay his dues and attend his local lodge, he was a very important part in helping people and there is nothing dark and sinister about that.

Yes, Albert Pike was a Freemason in the Civil War days of our country. However, he was only one man, and no one man can speak authoratively for all of Masonry. If you want to know what Masonry meant to your Granddad, don't read about Albert Pike. All you will learn at best is what one man, long dead and gone may have once believed about Masonry. Instead, go to your Granddad's lodge. Listen to the stories about him that his brothers can tell you. I trust you will find good things.

By the way Pond...

I am sure you did not post that site in an attempt to stir anti-masonic sentiment. :D I have a feeling that while we may disagree on some issues, we have at least one thing in common and that is our agreement that hatred of Masonry comes out of fear and a lack of understanding about Masonry and what Masons really do. As Masons, all too often we foster this fear ourselves by stressing the "secrecy of the order". There are a handful of "secrets" that a Mason can't tell you, but only a handful. A couple handshakes, a couple passwords, nothing of any consequence really, and nothing you can't find out by studying the many sites that expose our "secrets". But what can be told about Masonry FAR OUTWEIGHS what cannot be told. You and I could sit down and literally talk for hours about Masonry and never have to worry about triping over any deep dark secrets. In fact, the real "secret of freemasonry" is the bond of brotherhood it creates. That secret can't be "revealed". It must be experienced. I for one am very glad to be in possession of that "secret".

BigGunz
07-07-2004, 04:08 PM
My Grandfather was Mason for over 50 years. He was also a Shriner. He drove the children From his town to Houston on a regular basis. My grandmother was Eastern Star.

Pond
07-07-2004, 04:08 PM
Yes Taxil was very slanderous of Masonry but he was found to be a hoax .. and that he took parts of Pikes writings and made them look like something that he did not mean ... This started 100 years ago and people have taken things out of context from Pikes writings to make Masons out to be evil ..
No one should believe one persons views on anything ...

Krispy , I would never post anything that would deframe a Mason ..

Anonymous
07-07-2004, 04:10 PM
Do I have to say that I am wrong ?? I would like to say that a little light never hurt anyone .. Please don`t make me beg ... :lol:

There is no need to beg or even say you are wrong. As you said, a little light never hurt anyone.

See, something else we agree on.

I am just glad we are finding positive things to say to each other rather than negative and even when we disagree I will try to extend great latitude to you and do my best to see things from your side of the discussion.

I am wrong quite often. That happens a lot when you are as opinionated as I am. I have been known to form an opinion based on what I know of the facts, then when "more light" reveals more facts, I have to adapt my stance. There is nothing wrong with admitting you were honestly mistaken or changing your opinions based on new facts. The only wrong is to cling desperately to a known falsehood in an attempt to appear right. :)

I like you Pond. You are good people.

Miss Mally
07-07-2004, 04:11 PM
in·tol·er·ant
Pronunciation: -r&nt
Function: adjective
1 : unable or unwilling to endure
2 a : unwilling to grant equal freedom of expression especially in religious matters b : unwilling to grant or share social, political, or professional rights

This is a word that has various personal meanings. I view it pretty much as the above defines it.

Some seem to take a more liberal view of intelerance. They feel that if their views are not validated by another...that the other is being intolerant. Christians who believe they are the only ones that will get to the heaven they are believe in...have been labled as intolerant because of that belief. That isn't intolerance...it is simply a belief. Christians have no contol in the denial part of entry.

my opinion is if you are not being persecuted either physically or by being denied the right to express your faith etc. you are being tolerated. I know many just tolerate me. lol

Anonymous
07-07-2004, 04:36 PM
My Grandfather was Mason for over 50 years. He was also a Shriner. He drove the children From his town to Houston on a regular basis. My grandmother was Eastern Star.

That's great Gunz, sounds like you have a great Mason family heritage. Just a side note, but if your Grandmother was a member of the Eastern Star, I would almost bet you money that your Grandfather was too. The Order of the Eastern Star provides a place where Masons can share with their female family members. Lots of Masons, myself included join with their spouses. I can speak from experience when I tell you that the initiation ceremony can be very supportive of, and strenghtening to the existing family or marital bonds. Course, sometimes your spouse still decides to divorce you a couple years later, but that's another story... *LOL*

That's also great about his 50 years of service and his work in the Shrine. I tell ya what, that 50 years is nothing to sneeze at. It represents one helluva commitment and speaks volumes. Once when I was serving as Secretary of my local lodge, a brother from Michigan contacted me to tell me his brother was a resident in a local nursing home. He wanted to know if someone from our lodge could go visit his brother. Selfishly, I took the honor myself and went to visit the brother. When I told him who I was, the first thing he wanted to do was give me a fraternal handshake, which is how one Mason can may know another in the darkness as well as in the light, and the second thing was to show me his gold 50 year pin. He was mighty proud of that, and rightly so.

Anonymous
07-07-2004, 05:09 PM
in·tol·er·ant
Pronunciation: -r&nt
Function: adjective
1 : unable or unwilling to endure
2 a : unwilling to grant equal freedom of expression especially in religious matters b : unwilling to grant or share social, political, or professional rights

This is a word that has various personal meanings...
my opinion is if you are not being persecuted either physically or by being denied the right to express your faith etc. you are being tolerated. I know many just tolerate me. lol

Mally, I must agree with your definitions, both quoted from the dictionary and your personal opinion. I think a lot of people get their feathers ruffled unnecessarily on all sides of religious discussions.

For example, right wing fundamentalists of today that bemoan how they are being "persecuted" for their beliefs here in the land of the free and the home of the brave would probably cause those who were tortured to death for their faith (in the early Christian era and more recently in third world countries) to roll over in their graves. :D

As for myself, a little healthy opposition only forces me to sharpen my wits and practice my skills of verbal self defense.

The only problem I have is that around this neck of the woods, most folks don't seem to have studied their own beliefs very well. They just take whatever is spoon fed to them from the local pulpit and walk around parroting catch phrases and half quoted scriptures in an attempt to keep the pagans in their place.

I have stopped even talking to these types. It's no fun having to argue their side of the debate for them because they can't quote anything outside of John 3:16.

Now let me foster a little balance here by saying that all too many pagans do the exact same thing. They read a couple books, learn the "right way" to walk around the circle, what color means love and what color means money and bang, they are instant experts gushing forth rivers of information.

Like I said, I don't like hypocracy or intolerance from anyone, no matter what they profess to believe.

Here however, it's an honor to be among several well educated individuals on all sides that will no doubt keep me on my toes. :)

BigGunz
07-07-2004, 05:11 PM
My Grandmother was in Daughters of the Nile....its probably true that gandpaw was a member of the Eastern Star but I dont recall him ever mentioning it. I have my grandfathers 50 yr pin and his ring.

Anonymous
07-08-2004, 12:36 AM
Oh man I'm getting in here late.
I was raised and still consider myself to be Southern Baptist, even if a "backslidden" one. However, I must agree with BG...I have several friends that are pagan or Wiccan and ALL of them with no exceptions are the kindest, most tolerant people on the face of the earth.
Yes, the Bible and the teachings of mainstream Christianity urge it's believers to convert those "lost" so that they may be "saved", but I don't and never have believed that that includes the right to belittle, decry, or in any way show a bad attitude toward anyone else's beliefs. I also believe (and always have), that to belittle, or decry long held beliefs has an effect completely opposite of the desired result on non-Christians. Or on most folks, for that matter. The spirit of gentleness and living as an example of your faith will go much farther in "converting" anyone to anything.

Just my two cents worth.. or less, LOL!!
Shel

RogueEconomist
07-11-2004, 09:39 PM
I have stopped even talking to these types. It's no fun having to argue their side of the debate for them because they can't quote anything outside of John 3:16.

Now let me foster a little balance here by saying that all too many pagans do the exact same thing. They read a couple books, learn the "right way" to walk around the circle, what color means love and what color means money and bang, they are instant experts gushing forth rivers of information.

Like I said, I don't like hypocracy or intolerance from anyone, no matter what they profess to believe.

Here however, it's an honor to be among several well educated individuals on all sides that will no doubt keep me on my toes. :)[/quote]


Wow, a first, I agree with medicineman1965 on something :D theres not enough bible in the bible belt. Like the bible says my people parish for lack of knowledge.

Rhiannon
07-12-2004, 07:27 PM
Everbody should view this link.


http://religion-cults.com/index.html

RogueEconomist
07-12-2004, 08:57 PM
Everbody should view this link.


http://religion-cults.com/index.html

wow thats really intresting thanks for posting it.

Miss Mally
07-12-2004, 09:27 PM
is there something specific you wanted us to look at on this siter Rhia. Lots and lots of information there. I have't had the time to read but a few things.

Rhiannon
07-12-2004, 09:47 PM
is there something specific you wanted us to look at on this siter Rhia. Lots and lots of information there. I have't had the time to read but a few things.

No, just when you have time to look at it. It is very interesting, I just found it by accident.

BigGunz
07-12-2004, 09:49 PM
I havent had time to check it out yet either...but I will later!

BigGunz
07-12-2004, 11:58 PM
There is alot of stuff on that site I just read quite a bit of it...but will have to finish in several sittings.....Thanks for The addy Rhi...interesting to say the least!

Pond
07-13-2004, 07:12 AM
Everbody should view this link.


http://religion-cults.com/index.html

Thanks for the link ... I read some on Masons and right off the bat this man was wrong about what the Square and compas mean ...so I want to say he does not know what he is talking about .
We have to be careful what we read at all times .. thinking what someone thinks they know ..is not always fact.. I tend to not argue about anything unless I know for sure that something is right ..I sure do not believe everything that someone puts out there as fact..
We ought to know by what is put out there on the spin ..A person has to use their head about things in life ...
Thanks again for the link ,I will read with an open mind ... :)