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souldancefree
06-21-2004, 12:24 PM
Women in the Church... what do you think??

spy
06-21-2004, 12:31 PM
I think that my fellow womyns should be able to do whatevah they wants to.

jenfrog81
06-21-2004, 12:34 PM
Women in the Church... what do you think?? What do you mean like a Minster or as a congregation ?

Miss Mally
06-21-2004, 12:41 PM
Woman have their place in the church...the older women are to lead, teach and encourage the younger children.

What I think doesn't really matter Soul....what does God think? What does the bible say about this issue?

Anonymous
06-21-2004, 01:59 PM
Yes Women Should attend Church.

Rhiannon
06-21-2004, 02:03 PM
What exactly are you asking SDF?

souldancefree
06-21-2004, 03:01 PM
hahahah LOUSEY made me laugh.

im talking about women having high positions in the church, such as pastor, associate pastor, music leader, youth leader, etc.

Anonymous
06-21-2004, 05:29 PM
Women in the Church... what do you think??

Read Romans Chapter 16, 1 Corinthians, 11:5, Galatians 3:28,,, for starters. I'm just not with the Church of Christ on the women's role. The whole Bible teaches much more than just one verse.

Gearldean
06-21-2004, 05:36 PM
I think anyone in the church should do whatever they have the gift to do. Doesn't matter whether they're male or female. I don't think God gives a person a gift then leaves orders not to use the gift if they happen to be female.

BigGunz
06-21-2004, 05:41 PM
I agree with GD on this one!

Gearldean
06-21-2004, 05:44 PM
I agree with GD on this one!
Well, that probably means I was wrong. :D

BigGunz
06-21-2004, 05:50 PM
yeah, probably so...but I cannot help it!.......lol

Miss Mally
06-21-2004, 05:55 PM
Pastor, bishop and elder mean the same thing...now with that in mind...in chapter 3 of Timothy....the bible gives us the rules for who can be an elder. Read these. I do believe as Riata that you must use the whole bible and not just one verse. But you can't just ignore one verse or one chapter because ya don't like it either.

While you are reading Romans....read the whole chapter...yes it speaks of women praying...and of course I think we are all in agreement that women should pray...never heard anyone say they shouldn't. But the whole chapter does speak about how a woman should pray...and who she is to be submissive to and even how she is to show submission.

while you are in Corinthians...read Chapter 14....the whole chapter preferably...but especially 33 to the end...it specifically addresses women.

It is written in black and white...so you don't have to think to much about it. It is very specific.

We are all to be servants for the lord....but each servant has a different role and the roles are often defined in the bible.

Anonymous
06-21-2004, 06:33 PM
I think anyone in the church should do whatever they have the gift to do. Doesn't matter whether they're male or female. I don't think God gives a person a gift then leaves orders not to use the gift if they happen to be female.


It is a sin to waste a God Given Talent.

Miss Mally
06-21-2004, 06:38 PM
I agree with ya Riatta. But we must use those talents as God would have us to use them...and in his way....not just how we want to.

Art
06-21-2004, 06:57 PM
Are we Jew or Gentile? The Bible speaks of the Jewish way of conducting oneself. In many places, it distinguishes between Jews and Gentiles, so which teaching should we follow?
Are females any lesser loved than males? Are females any less significant in God's eyes than males? Can a female accept Jesus as her Savior and be saved just as a male can? And can she do that without permission or blessing from her husband?
If the answer to the last two questions is "Yes", then that means women have equality in the church with men. Readers of the Scripture should be careful to distinguish between discussions of women's roles in church and discussions of women's roles in marriage. They are not one and the same.

Miss Mally
06-21-2004, 07:06 PM
Unless we were born into the Jewish lineage...we are Gentiles. But both Jews and Gentiles are called to follow Christ and his teachings. We are no longer held to the old law but now fall under the new if we are Christians...and Christians can be both Jew and Gentile...the Good News was brought first to the Jew...and when they rejected it...it was then taken to the Gentile.

The just because a woman's role in the church may differ from that of a the male role...doesn't mean she is less loved or unworthy of the same forgiveness.

Chapter 14 of Corinthians is specific to the actions of women in the church.

Corinthians 14:33-35

33.For God in not the author of confusion but on peace, as in all the church of the saints. 34. Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. 35. And if they want to ask something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for its shameful for women to speak in the church.

Gearldean
06-21-2004, 07:07 PM
...Readers of the Scripture should be careful to distinguish between discussions of women's roles in church and discussions of women's roles in marriage..They are not one and the same.
Uh, oh! Ya struck a raw nerve! God may have intended men to be leaders but I don't think he meant for them to be Commanders in a marriage.

Art
06-21-2004, 07:12 PM
Oh, that's right. I forgot. We did change the vow from "love, honor, and obey" to "love, honor, and cherish", didn't we?

Rhiannon
06-21-2004, 07:15 PM
Oh, that's right. I forgot. We did change the vow from "love, honor, and obey" to "love, honor, and cherish", didn't we?

I said obey! Both ceremonies! lol

Miss Mally
06-21-2004, 07:15 PM
I believe men should wear the pants...that yes they are to be "obeyed" ....but the key here is that the men should love their wives as they love themselves...as Christ loved the Church. Which means a man should be willing to die for his wife...that kinda love. That kinda love doesn't diminsh the wife with cruelty...but builds her up...puts her first in all things as Christ built up the church....and put the church first...even to the point of dying for the Church.

Sometimes...women and men both want to ignore these commands.

Art
06-21-2004, 07:24 PM
You're confusing the terms "man and woman" with "husband and wife". The Scriptures that Mally quoted about women remaining silent doesn't apply to all women. It applies to wives. All women don't have husbands to ask, right?

May I call to your attention the following verses from Galatians Chapter 3?

26: For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27: For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Miss Mally
06-21-2004, 07:43 PM
You're confusing the terms "man and woman" with "husband and wife". The Scriptures that Mally quoted about women remaining silent doesn't apply to all women. It applies to wives. All women don't have husbands to ask, right?

May I call to your attention the following verses from Galatians Chapter 3?

26: For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27: For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

I am not confusing wife with woman...I directly quoted. Paul was addressing a situation in the church where the worship was disorganized....the whole of Chpt. 14 is about organization...he gives specific rules to when and how several groups of people were to conduct themselves in the worship...one of those groups being women. You may not like it....but that is what we are told to do.

You can spin it to only apply to married women. But other chapters also address the issue of womens roles in the church. Yes...we are given examples of women working in the church...women who are teachers...women who are elders wives and who are told to teach the younger women.

We are to follow by example...Christ picked men as his apostles...they were the first leaders of the Church. I do not believe that women have no roles in the Church...but they are not to be in leadership roles with authority over men.

We have examples of women in the bible spreading the Good News to those who were not Christians...we have examples of women teaching other women in the church, of women teaching their children.

And even if I were confusing the Church with marrage and the woman with Wife...that would not be off base either...As that is God's comparison in how we should conduct ourselves. The Church is compaired often to being a bride.

BigGunz
06-21-2004, 07:51 PM
I have heard people say they had a calling from God to preach and to spread the word of God. Who are we to say that a woman cannot recieve this calling from God? Who is to say thats what she wanted?. Yet she follows Gods will as he spoke to her? Are we to say she lied?

Art
06-21-2004, 08:18 PM
Mally, the Greek word used in those scriptures was "gyne". The scripture further tells the "gyne" to ask their husbands in private, rather than speaking out. What about the women who don't have husbands?
The translation should have read "wives" instead of "women". Wives should not speak out in church but ask their husbands in private.
Do a little research on the original text and you'll see that I am right about this.
I'm not trying to change your way of thinking. If you want to remain silent in church, that's up to you, but others who choose not to remain silent should not be put down. Especially if they are not married.
I know that one denomination in particular teaches that women should remain silent, and if that's the way they believe, more power to them!

RogueEconomist
06-21-2004, 08:54 PM
Miss Mally is 100% correct. It comes down to not what we think but what God thinks. A in depth study of the bible "Hermeneutics" supports women not holding positions of authority in the church. This is not to say womens roles are less important than mans , just different.

A deep question for all

Is it harder to obey or love? Thus who has God required the harder task?

Miss Mally
06-21-2004, 09:05 PM
γυνή η gyni i = woman wife. There is no word in the ancient Greek for just woman. Part of the problem here is that we view any female who is 21 as a woman...to understand the greek...you must undertand the culture as well....and until you had been married...you were still concidered a child and under the control of your father. A woman would ask her husband...a child would ask their father. As there was not a problem with children causing a diruption in the church...children (unwed girls) were not addressed in this section.

pianoman
06-22-2004, 06:58 AM
One time while preparing to ordain a new preacher for our church we got into this discussion. He was asked what he believed was the role a woman should have in a church. Specifically if she should be either deacon, or pastor, or anything to do with leadership. The young man said he knew what Paul had to say about the matter, but he was not sure he could agree with Paul on the role of a woman in the church. He said he would have to study some more about that particular issue, but he did feel that if a woman felt she had a sincere calling to be a pastor, or deacon, that her sex should not be a hindrance. He believed that anyone who did not do what they felt God was sincerely telling them to do, was out of the will of God.

During Paul's time, women didn't really count. They were thought of as inferior even by some men. They could not have roles in the temples, only could stand in the background. Jesus did not treat women this way, in fact he went out of his way a few times to make sure a woman was helped. And told these women to go tell others.

The only one in the new testament that really speaks out against women having a role in church is Paul. I have to wonder if his past education and upbringing didn't have something to do with his teachings.

SosebeeArt
06-22-2004, 07:27 AM
Very well said, pianoman. More than one pastor I've had said that Paul was adressing a particular church where things had gotten completely out of hand. He said the women and men were segregated and didn't sit together. The women would ask their husbands things whispering loudly or talking across the room and it was disruptive. So Paul put a stop to it. People tend to take that one passage and ignore the very many women in the bible who were leaders with wisdom and the blessings of God.

Girlie
06-22-2004, 07:57 AM
I understood it the same way, pianoman.

Do any of you remember what title Isaiah gave his wife? He called her the "prophetess".

Miss Mally
06-22-2004, 08:39 AM
I am really suprized. You don't agree with Paul. Do you agree that the Bible is inspired by God? Do you agree that the bible is God's word?

How can you believe any of the bible if you don't have faith that God only allowed to be written what he wanted us to know and follow?

The point here is not whether you like what Paul had to say...or even whether you want to agree with him.....IT is whether GOD liked what Paul had to say and whether GOD agrees with him.

SosebeeArt
06-22-2004, 09:06 AM
I don't think anyone is dismissing what Paul said. We're just taking it in the context in which he said it.

To place your beliefs about women in church solely on what Paul said to that church is to ignore many other parts of the bible which are just as much a part of God's word.

Gearldean
06-22-2004, 09:18 AM
...During Paul's time, women didn't really count. They were thought of as inferior even by some men. They could not have roles in the temples, only could stand in the background. Jesus did not treat women this way, in fact he went out of his way a few times to make sure a woman was helped. And told these women to go tell others.

The only one in the new testament that really speaks out against women having a role in church is Paul. I have to wonder if his past education and upbringing didn't have something to do with his teachings.
I like your abilityl to reason, Pianoman. The idea that God made women inferior to men is something I cannot accept. I think it all boils down to ego, not God's will.

Gearldean
06-22-2004, 09:20 AM
I don't think anyone is dismissing what Paul said. We're just taking it in the context in which he said it.

To place your beliefs about women in church solely on what Paul said to that church is to ignore many other parts of the bible which are just as much a part of God's word.
Beautifully spoken!!!!!! :D

Miss Mally
06-22-2004, 09:25 AM
Paul never has espoused that women should not participate, should not be teachers or do service in the Lords name.

Pianoman flat out said his preacher said he didn't agree with Paul.

How many times in the Bible does it tell us that we should give up a portion...to tithe? Only a couple. Does that mean we should ignore it? Just because God mentions something ONE time in his word...doesn't mean he didn't mean it.

Tell me where there is one example in the bible of a woman being an elder or where the bible gives the qualifications that allow a woman to be an elder. Where in the bible...name one place that an example is given of a woman being in a leadership role...or where it says it is okay for a woman to be in authority over a man. By showing Prisilla as a woman who taught Apollos....I do not believe this contraticts Gods inspired word. She taught Apollos with her husband...and it was not done during the organized worship...it was done with in a one on one situation. Apollo was not a Christian...he had not the baptism of Christ...he didn't have full understanding. This is our example of how women are to teach.

Other passages that concern women are found in Timothy...the the older women are to teach the younger to take care of their families and love their husbands.....that young widows are not to be taken care of by the church but that they should remarry....because if they don't they are idle...that they should have a home and family to manage.

I do not see where these passages differ in what Paul said in Corinthians....or where they contridict.

Please, if you have a specific New Testiment Example that contridicts Pauls statement to women and how they should behave during organized worship....Please share it.

Miss Mally
06-22-2004, 09:26 AM
...During Paul's time, women didn't really count. They were thought of as inferior even by some men. They could not have roles in the temples, only could stand in the background. Jesus did not treat women this way, in fact he went out of his way a few times to make sure a woman was helped. And told these women to go tell others.

The only one in the new testament that really speaks out against women having a role in church is Paul. I have to wonder if his past education and upbringing didn't have something to do with his teachings.
I like your abilityl to reason, Pianoman. The idea that God made women inferior to men is something I cannot accept. I think it all boils down to ego, not God's will.

No one has said inferior.....just that we have different roles in the Church. Why is that so hard? Why must women demain to be able to be in every single role that a man has????? to be concidered equal????

Gearldean
06-22-2004, 10:06 AM
No one has said inferior.....just that we have different roles in the Church. Why is that so hard? Why must women demain to be able to be in every single role that a man has????? to be concidered equal????
The quotation from the Bible supporting the idea that it's shameful for women to SPEAK in church leads me to believe SOMEBODY thought women were inferior but I don't think it was GOD! Nothing will convince me that God intended for women to feel shame in church for simply speaking.

Miss Mally
06-22-2004, 10:16 AM
Some people don't like the fact that the bible says homosexuality is wrong. Some people don't like the fact that the bible says adultry is a sin. But that doesn't change the fact that the bible says it.....and if we are to believe the Bible....put our faith in the bible as the Word of God....shouldn't we put our faith in the whole thing....not just the parts we pick out that we like?

Gearldean
06-22-2004, 10:23 AM
Some people don't like the fact that the bible says homosexuality is wrong. Some people don't like the fact that the bible says adultry is a sin. But that doesn't change the fact that the bible says it.....and if we are to believe the Bible....put our faith in the bible as the Word of God....shouldn't we put our faith in the whole thing....not just the parts we pick out that we like?
You're telling me that it's a SIN for a woman to speak in church? I just don't see that! It just goes against all that God is when women are told that they should feel shame for being what God made them.

Miss Mally
06-22-2004, 10:30 AM
Some people don't like the fact that the bible says homosexuality is wrong. Some people don't like the fact that the bible says adultry is a sin. But that doesn't change the fact that the bible says it.....and if we are to believe the Bible....put our faith in the bible as the Word of God....shouldn't we put our faith in the whole thing....not just the parts we pick out that we like?
You're telling me that it's a SIN for a woman to speak in church? I just don't see that! It just goes against all that God is when women are told that they should feel shame for being what God made them.

I am not telling you anything Gd except what the words of the bible say. You either believe the bible or you don't. What did God makes us for?

The bible tells us that in Genesis....as a help mate for man. We can either except the roles God expects us to fullfill ( and i don't feel these roles are disgraceful....but the most beautiful roles...and some of the most needed)...or we can buck him and try and veiw those roles as some how degrading. Bucking God doesn't seem to me to lead to much happiness nor to a better world.

Miss Mally
06-22-2004, 10:42 AM
Has no one an example to show me from the New Testament....of a woman elder (bishop-pastor) or of an example of a woman who...in the Church had authority over a man?

SosebeeArt
06-22-2004, 11:04 AM
Has no one an example to show me from the New Testament....of a woman elder (bishop-pastor) or of an example of a woman who...in the Church had authority over a man?
Just curious, but why do you ask only for something from the New Testament? Do you not credit the Old Testament as being just as much a part of God's Word?

I'll check back for your answer to this question. But as far as this "women in church" debate goes, I am chalking it up to one of those "I can't change your mind about this and you can't change mine" and will not waste anymore words on the subject.

SosebeeArt
06-22-2004, 11:11 AM
Just curious, but why do you ask only for something from the New Testament? Do you not credit the Old Testament as being just as much a part of God's Word?

I'll check back for your answer to this question. But as far as this "women in church" debate goes, I am chalking it up to one of those "I can't change your mind about this and you can't change mine" and will not waste anymore words on the subject.

Oh man- I think I just killed another debate. I'm bad about that.

Girlie
06-22-2004, 11:16 AM
I made a valid point earlier that has sparked no one's interest. Even Isaiah referred to his wife as the "prophetess" ... He, being one of the greatest prophets of Biblical times, called a woman a prophetess. This means she performed the same things as a man, except she was a woman. Prophets gave the word of God directly from God.

Main Entry: proph·et
Pronunciation: 'prä-f&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English prophete, from Old French, from Latin propheta, from Greek prophEtEs, from pro for + phanai to speak -- more at FOR, BAN
1 : one who utters divinely inspired revelations; specifically often capitalized : the writer of one of the prophetic books of the Old Testament
2 : one gifted with more than ordinary spiritual and moral insight; especially : an inspired poet
3 : one who foretells future events : PREDICTOR
4 : an effective or leading spokesman for a cause, doctrine, or group
5 Christian Science a : a spiritual seer b : disappearance of material sense before the conscious facts of spiritual Truth
- proph·et·hood /-"hud/ noun


Main Entry: proph·et·ess
Pronunciation: 'prä-f&-t&s
Function: noun
: a woman who is a prophet


Someone found it important enough to name 2 books in the Bible with women's names.

Gearldean
06-22-2004, 11:30 AM
I am not telling you anything Gd except what the words of the bible say. You either believe the bible or you don't. What did God makes us for? ...
The following statement leads me to believe that you ARE telling me something:
"Some people don't like the fact that the bible says homosexuality is wrong. Some people don't like the fact that the bible says adultry is a sin."

It's not the Bible that I don't believe but, rather, the interpretation of God's will.

It is not my intention to influence others to believe as I believe and I refuse to engage in a battle of scriptures because there's always a chance that I might do harm.

My wish is to influlence others, who may not know Him, to give God a chance. I believe they will be less likely to do that by the use of intimidation.

Miss Mally
06-22-2004, 11:43 AM
I made a valid point earlier that has sparked no one's interest. Even Isaiah referred to his wife as the "prophetess" ... He, being one of the greatest prophets of Biblical times, called a woman a prophetess. This means she performed the same things as a man, except she was a woman. Prophets gave the word of God directly from God.

Main Entry: proph·et
Pronunciation: 'prä-f&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English prophete, from Old French, from Latin propheta, from Greek prophEtEs, from pro for + phanai to speak -- more at FOR, BAN
1 : one who utters divinely inspired revelations; specifically often capitalized : the writer of one of the prophetic books of the Old Testament
2 : one gifted with more than ordinary spiritual and moral insight; especially : an inspired poet
3 : one who foretells future events : PREDICTOR
4 : an effective or leading spokesman for a cause, doctrine, or group
5 Christian Science a : a spiritual seer b : disappearance of material sense before the conscious facts of spiritual Truth
- proph·et·hood /-"hud/ noun


Main Entry: proph·et·ess
Pronunciation: 'prä-f&-t&s
Function: noun
: a woman who is a prophet


Someone found it important enough to name 2 books in the Bible with women's names.


First of all this is under the old law...in the old testament....and this doesn't apply to the Church. Second....being a prophet...having knowledge of God and insight or foreknowledge doesn't mean she is in a leadership possition. Not once have I said that woman can not be teachers....just that under the New Testament there are examples of how this is to be done.

I do not believe that I have said anywhere that woman are not important or needed. Just that God has given us a place...a role and that we should be happy with that...not resentfull and trying to change what God wants of us to fit our own wants and desires.

wellspring
06-22-2004, 11:49 AM
Has no one an example to show me from the New Testament....of a woman elder (bishop-pastor) or of an example of a woman who...in the Church had authority over a man?
Just curious, but why do you ask only for something from the New Testament? Do you not credit the Old Testament as being just as much a part of God's Word?

I'll check back for your answer to this question. But as far as this "women in church" debate goes, I am chalking it up to one of those "I can't change your mind about this and you can't change mine" and will not waste anymore words on the subject.

I can not answer for Mally but I can tell you why I rely on the New Testament.
I was taught that the Old Testament covered the covenant that God made with Abraham and his descendants. However that the birth of Jesus and his dying on the cross for our sins brought a new covenant between us and God. Therefore I view the Old Testament as being very important in that it gives us the history and background, it builds the foundation to the new covenant. The New Testament teaches of the salvation to be found in Jesus Christ. In it Christ says "On this rock I will build my Church". That tells me that the church should model the ones in the New Testament and when looking for instruction on how a church is to operate we should look to the New Testament.

I was privaleged to be in a class that was taught recently at our church. The teacher talked about Christ throughout the bible. The class really helped me to realize how everything in the Old Testament was preparing the way for the coming of Christ.
Look at the original Passover. What were the qualification for the lamb to be sluaghtered. It had to be perfect and without blemish. Christ was like that. He was the perfect sacrifice to cleanse us from our sins.

Miss Mally
06-22-2004, 11:51 AM
I am not telling you anything Gd except what the words of the bible say. You either believe the bible or you don't. What did God makes us for? ...
The following statement leads me to believe that you ARE telling me something:
"Some people don't like the fact that the bible says homosexuality is wrong. Some people don't like the fact that the bible says adultry is a sin."

It's not the Bible that I don't believe but, rather, the interpretation of God's will.

It is not my intention to influence others to believe as I believe and I refuse to engage in a battle of scriptures because there's always a chance that I might do harm.

My wish is to influlence others, who may not know Him, to give God a chance. I believe they will be less likely to do that by the use of intimidation.

I to believe that battling over scriptures can do harm....but we are also told not to add to or take away from the scriptures....we are told not to be decived by mens teachings and beliefs...but to follow Gods word. I do not believe that most of the bible needs to be interpreted....Just follow what it says...don't try to figure out....if God could have ment this or might have really intended it to fit in this way. None of the bible is hard to understand....but it becomes mighty difficult if you go around trying to interpret. It is black and white....it is His Word....Let it be his word.

Sometimes we decide....God couldn't possibly be anthing but kind and loving....but we often see that God truely does have many emotions....anger, disappointment etc. We want our God to fit our standards of what a God should be....instead of excepting that our creator IS.

Miss Mally
06-22-2004, 11:57 AM
Just curious, but why do you ask only for something from the New Testament? Do you not credit the Old Testament as being just as much a part of God's Word?

I'll check back for your answer to this question. But as far as this "women in church" debate goes, I am chalking it up to one of those "I can't change your mind about this and you can't change mine" and will not waste anymore words on the subject.

Oh man- I think I just killed another debate. I'm bad about that.

No problem....and as far as I can tell...the debate is still going. You can change my mind if you have scripture to back up your beliefs.

Wellspring pretty well explained it as I understand it as well. Christians are not held to the old covenent but are guided by the New. We are not to pattern ourselves after the Jews....but after the New Church that Christ gave his life for.

Paul tells the new Christians (who were not Jewish by birth) that if they choose to be governed by the old law...that they were dead in Christ. That they had given up what Jesus had died for us for. (This was in reference to Circumsision). With that in mind....Christians...while studing all scripture...are to pattern their lives after that of the examples given to us by the Apostles....for that is what Christ sent them out to do...to teach us and lead by example.

Girlie
06-22-2004, 12:01 PM
The Ten Commandments are in the Old Testament. Since they are located in the Old Testament does that mean we are not under them? I believe we still are and I believe they apply to the church.

Not being under law, in my studies and what I've heard preached, refers to not having to do things like sacrifice animals to have a blood covering for our sins ... God sent Jesus as the ultimate blood sacrifice to take our place and now we are under grace.

Prophets and Prophetesses are said to hear straight from God and be able to reveal a lot of things to people. If a prophetess stands before a man and reveals things to him or gives him answers he's been waiting for, to me, that is still leadership in my opinion.

I was looking at the entire definition of the word "prophet", but especially the part about being a spokesperson. If you are a spokesperson for God, you lead in His ways.

This is just how I believe in all the years of teachings I heard and the studies I've done on my own.

Girlie
06-22-2004, 12:10 PM
I don't want to get this off-topic because I am really interested in everything everyone has to say, but I do have a question, especially for you, Miss Mally ....

You said you don't believe that most of the Bible needs interpretation. I feel differently now after hearing Mark Shell preach this past week. I wouldn't have thought I needed interpretation on this part, either.

My main change of heart/mind came when he told us about the scripture where Jesus was teaching in parables ...

Luke 11:11-13 are the scriptures I am referring to ...

I had to have interpretation of what these next 2 verses meant, and that required hearing it from someone who knew what bread, stone, fish, serpent, egg, and scorpion really signified for the biblical times. They all had meanings different than what we would think they mean.

Very interesting! I'm thankful for that interpretation and to understand God's word more clearly.

Miss Mally
06-22-2004, 12:56 PM
The Ten Commandments are in the Old Testament. Since they are located in the Old Testament does that mean we are not under them? I believe we still are and I believe they apply to the church.

Not being under law, in my studies and what I've heard preached, refers to not having to do things like sacrifice animals to have a blood covering for our sins ... God sent Jesus as the ultimate blood sacrifice to take our place and now we are under grace.

Prophets and Prophetesses are said to hear straight from God and be able to reveal a lot of things to people. If a prophetess stands before a man and reveals things to him or gives him answers he's been waiting for, to me, that is still leadership in my opinion.

I was looking at the entire definition of the word "prophet", but especially the part about being a spokesperson. If you are a spokesperson for God, you lead in His ways.

This is just how I believe in all the years of teachings I heard and the studies I've done on my own.

Girlie...no...I do not follow the ten commandments. I don't believe many today follow them all. Rarely to I see Christians keep the Sabath. The Sabath begins on Friday at dark....and to truely keep it...you must do no work...not even cook. The Jewish women would cook all the meals for the sabath beforehand.

No...I do not follow the old law...but...Jesus...on the sermon on the mt...addressed many of the ten commandments...and added to them for us to follow under the new convenent...the sermon on the Mt. addresses what I should do with the ten commandments.

Girlie...take a look at chapter 5 of Galatians...this addresses what it means to follow the old law. Paul tells us in this chapter...if we are bound by one thing in the old law...then we are bound by it all and we give up Christ...we become estranged from him and have fallen from grace. This is found specificly in verse 4.

We do not even have to interpret the parables Girlie...for Christ told them...and then he interpreted them for the apostles....Christ explained his parables to his followers who did not understand them. Why should we attempt to interpret them further?

Girlie
06-22-2004, 01:29 PM
I understand Galations 5 to mean something different than you have expressed. I'm talking specifically about verse 4.

My understanding of it is that ... like my Bible says ... you are estranged from Christ if you attempt to be justified by the law I am justified through what Christ did for me, not the old law. I do not have to make sacrifices of an animal to cleanse myself of sin - that's how I understand it.

I have a hard time accepting that the ten commandments don't matter now, except for what Jesus said at the sermon on the mount.

Christ did not have to interpret a lot because he spoke in a time when the people he was speaking to did understand him. For example, the verse I gave you earlier about bread, stone, fish, serpent, egg, scorpion all meant something in Jesus day that we do not acknowledge in every day talk of these items. The Hebrew translations of these words also mean different things besides what we know them to mean.

Man, this is interesting !!!!!!!!

Miss Mally
06-22-2004, 01:40 PM
I understand Galations 5 to mean something different than you have expressed. I'm talking specifically about verse 4.

My understanding of it is that ... like my Bible says ... you are estranged from Christ if you attempt to be justified by the law I am justified through what Christ did for me, not the old law. I do not have to make sacrifices of an animal to cleanse myself of sin - that's how I understand it.

I have a hard time accepting that the ten commandments don't matter now, except for what Jesus said at the sermon on the mount.

Christ did not have to interpret a lot because he spoke in a time when the people he was speaking to did understand him. For example, the verse I gave you earlier about bread, stone, fish, serpent, egg, scorpion all meant something in Jesus day that we do not acknowledge in every day talk of these items. The Hebrew translations of these words also mean different things besides what we know them to mean.

Man, this is interesting !!!!!!!!

Okay Girlie...in that Chapter in Galations...what is happening...why is Paul having this discussion? It is because Men were doing things from the old testament...that were not required or needed by the new covenent....they were in the simplist terms...following parts of the old law. The example here is Circumcision. verse 3 - and I testify again (seems he had told them this before) to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4- You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

This is the example he has given us to show us that we no longer are justified or bound by the old law....and that if we keep just one thing from the old law...we are bound to keep them all. This example has nothing to do with Blood sacrifice...but...by the statement of being bound by the whole law...he does incomapase blood sacrifice.

Miss Mally
06-22-2004, 01:59 PM
also...as far as the parable....what was Jesus trying to express to us? That our father gives us what we need. Past that....people are focusing and debating over one word...which is another thing we are told we should not do.

Whether we take the meaning of bread and stone to be literal or figurative...matters little in the point Christ was making.

BigGunz
06-22-2004, 02:09 PM
I have heard people say they had a calling from God to preach and to spread the word of God. Who are we to say that a woman cannot recieve this calling from God? Who is to say thats what she wanted?. Yet she follows Gods will as he spoke to her? Are we to say she lied?

I asked this question and nobody has an answer?

Girlie
06-22-2004, 02:12 PM
also...as far as the parable....what was Jesus trying to express to us? That our father gives us what we need. Past that....people are focusing and debating over one word...which is another thing we are told we should not do.

Whether we take the meaning of bread and stone to be literal or figurative...matters little in the point Christ was making.

It might matter little to you, but to me it matters a lot. Especially after hearing Mark Shell minister about unveiling the mysteries of God through the Holy Ghost ....

Yes, Christ will supply all our needs, but to some people, knowing that the word "bread" translates into "life" and that the stone that was spoken of represents a true stone, a black stone, that you were given for your sins ... "serpent" translates to mean "self" , etc ..............

It could mean the difference in the way someone begins living their life for Christ ... once they realize what He TRULY does for us! :)

Girlie
06-22-2004, 02:16 PM
I have heard people say they had a calling from God to preach and to spread the word of God. Who are we to say that a woman cannot recieve this calling from God? Who is to say thats what she wanted?. Yet she follows Gods will as he spoke to her? Are we to say she lied?

I asked this question and nobody has an answer?

Big, I know a woman Pastor and she is much more knowledgeable than a lot of men Pastors that I have been under. She believes with all her heart she is called of God to preach the Gospel .... and I don't believe anyone should tell her that she isn't. Many souls have come to know Christ because she told them about Him!

I don't think God is going to condemn what she is doing. She is changing lives for God ... and that's commendable in my book !!!

Miss Mally
06-22-2004, 02:17 PM
Miriam...sister to Arron and Moses was also a prophetess....and we are given an example to of her works.

Exodus 15:20 And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances.

Also....many times in the Bible...prophets wives are refered to as prophetess. This doesn't always mean they ministered to men.

jenfrog81
06-22-2004, 02:18 PM
I have heard people say they had a calling from God to preach and to spread the word of God. Who are we to say that a woman cannot recieve this calling from God? Who is to say thats what she wanted?. Yet she follows Gods will as he spoke to her? Are we to say she lied?

I asked this question and nobody has an answer?If I was Smart I was anwser that Question . LOL

BigGunz
06-22-2004, 02:24 PM
I have heard people say they had a calling from God to preach and to spread the word of God. Who are we to say that a woman cannot recieve this calling from God? Who is to say thats what she wanted?. Yet she follows Gods will as he spoke to her? Are we to say she lied?

I asked this question and nobody has an answer?

Big, I know a woman Pastor and she is much more knowledgeable than a lot of men Pastors that I have been under. She believes with all her heart she is called of God to preach the Gospel .... and I don't believe anyone should tell her that she isn't. Many souls have come to know Christ because she told them about Him!

I don't think God is going to condemn what she is doing. She is changing lives for God ... and that's commendable in my book !!!


I hear ya.....Im getting confused on this thread becaus eI keep hearing arguments over the womans role in life...new and Old Testament. Prophet.s prophetess this and that...claims and misclaims...on and on and on...and not once has anyone tackeled the real issue of a WOMAN being Called to serve God as a minisiter by GOD himnself...and Im still wondering with all these pros and cons and whatever going on in here can one single person sit right here right now and say that they honestly belive that if a Woman say she was called upon by God to serve him by ministering his word by becoming a pastor, minister, preacher or whatever! that she is lieing about what GOD told her?

Miss Mally
06-22-2004, 02:31 PM
also...as far as the parable....what was Jesus trying to express to us? That our father gives us what we need. Past that....people are focusing and debating over one word...which is another thing we are told we should not do.

Whether we take the meaning of bread and stone to be literal or figurative...matters little in the point Christ was making.

It might matter little to you, but to me it matters a lot. Especially after hearing Mark Shell minister about unveiling the mysteries of God through the Holy Ghost ....

Yes, Christ will supply all our needs, but to some people, knowing that the word "bread" translates into "life" and that the stone that was spoken of represents a true stone, a black stone, that you were given for your sins ... "serpent" translates to mean "self" , etc ..............

It could mean the difference in the way someone begins living their life for Christ ... once they realize what He TRULY does for us! :)

Girlie...new Christians are to be given milk...and solid food is for those who have matured in Christ. I am glad you feel this is intersting...but can you see where for someone new to the Gospel...could also be confused by associating bread with life etc. Where they could initally get bogged down by figurative meanings...and then miss the point. I have seen this happen...people getting so confused by bread and Christ body...wine and blood...till they walk away frustrated.

Gods word is simple....and deep knowledge of history and word meanings is not needed to be able to follow Christ's way. I do not believe that doesn't mean someone with a thirst for more knowledge is wrong for seeking to understand the Greek or the Hebrew...or to understand the lives of the people then. I am simply saying that deep interpretation is not needed...

Miss Mally
06-22-2004, 02:42 PM
I have heard people say they had a calling from God to preach and to spread the word of God. Who are we to say that a woman cannot recieve this calling from God? Who is to say thats what she wanted?. Yet she follows Gods will as he spoke to her? Are we to say she lied?

I asked this question and nobody has an answer?

Big, I know a woman Pastor and she is much more knowledgeable than a lot of men Pastors that I have been under. She believes with all her heart she is called of God to preach the Gospel .... and I don't believe anyone should tell her that she isn't. Many souls have come to know Christ because she told them about Him!

I don't think God is going to condemn what she is doing. She is changing lives for God ... and that's commendable in my book !!!


I hear ya.....Im getting confused on this thread becaus eI keep hearing arguments over the womans role in life...new and Old Testament. Prophet.s prophetess this and that...claims and misclaims...on and on and on...and not once has anyone tackeled the real issue of a WOMAN being Called to serve God as a minisiter by GOD himnself...and Im still wondering with all these pros and cons and whatever going on in here can one single person sit right here right now and say that they honestly belive that if a Woman say she was called upon by God to serve him by ministering his word by becoming a pastor, minister, preacher or whatever! that she is lieing about what GOD told her?

i believe we are all called to be ministers and teachers and servents of the Lord. I do not believe God would call us to act in ways contrary to his Word that he left us to follow. In fact...Paul warns us that any voice or calling that comes to us that is contrary to the teachings of God...is not from God...and we must be wary and watchfull.

We are warned not to let our own pride and wants to come before that of the Lord.

Paul and Peter both warn us of ministers....teaching of Christ...but teaching other than what they have taught...and that while these people ment it for good...it was still wrong.

Apollo was leading people to God...but had no knowledge of the baptism of Christ...that is why Prisilla and Aquilla took him aside and gave him correct teaching. Apollo's heart was open to Gods word and he quickly accepted God's word and the baptism of Christ.

It is my belief...that many women do have a calling...and a talent...but have no the full knowledge of the word and attempt to fullfill that calling in an inappropriate way. Perhaps someone should take them aside...as Prisilla and Aquilla did Apollos.

We must all study the scriptures...and have the faith that they will always lead us in the correct way.

Women did not truely have roles of authority in the Church...till the feminist movement. We have allowed a movement outside the teachings of God...to infiltrate our thinking on the design of the church. We as men and women of the last century have been taught by the secular world...that women should be able to do what ever a man can do...and we have searched for ways to find justification within the scripture for this secular teaching.

BigGunz
06-22-2004, 02:46 PM
so in short term she would be lieing?

Miss Mally
06-22-2004, 02:48 PM
so in short term she would be lieing?

I believe there is a difference between lying and being misinformed or misreading the calling. So know...I do not believe I would call it lying. I don't believe Apollos was lying...he just did not have full knowledge of the truth.

BigGunz
06-22-2004, 02:53 PM
so in short term she would be lieing?

I believe there is a difference between lying and being misinformed or misreading the calling. So know...I do not believe I would call it lying. I don't believe Apollos was lying...he just did not have full knowledge of the truth.

So it is safe to say that God as we know him and how he works is wondeful and mysterious ways...who listens to all people...and speaks to us all in many ways....That because she is a woman she must have misunderstood God when he asked her to preach his Word by becoming a pastor or whatever?...seems to me a calling like that from God could hardly be misunderstood by anyone!

pianoman
06-22-2004, 02:55 PM
I have heard people say they had a calling from God to preach and to spread the word of God. Who are we to say that a woman cannot recieve this calling from God? Who is to say thats what she wanted?. Yet she follows Gods will as he spoke to her? Are we to say she lied?

This is Mrs. Pianoman....

I know in my heart that I was called for a short time to lead singing at my church, to relieve a man of the possition who had his hands full with a wife who has alztimers (and NO I can't spell). It is only a short time that I feel like I am called to do this. A person could talk to me till they are blue in the face but that can not change what I know is true.

"He called me to do this and if I don't do what I am asked to do, then I am wrong. Plain and simple."

I can not quote things from the bible word for word like others, I just know in my heart what he is telling me to do. And if I am to work at being more like jesus, then I will listen and do as I am told.

:wink: :wink: 8)

Miss Mally
06-22-2004, 02:58 PM
so in short term she would be lieing?

I believe there is a difference between lying and being misinformed or misreading the calling. So know...I do not believe I would call it lying. I don't believe Apollos was lying...he just did not have full knowledge of the truth.

So it is safe to say that God as we know him and how he works is wondeful and mysterious ways...who listens to all people...and speaks to us all in many ways....That because she is a woman she must have misunderstood God when he asked her to preach his Word by becoming a pastor or whatever?...seems to me a calling like that from God could hardly be misunderstood by anyone!

It is safe to say...we are human and therefore we er...but the bible is God's word and scripture teaches us that he would not call us to do something against his Word. We are to go to the bible for guidence...for the knowledge to understand what God means for us to do.

We as know as Christians that Mohamed is a false prophet...how? Because the bible tells us...not to add or take away from the bible. When we disreguard what the bible tells us is the qualifications of a pastor...the husband of one wife etc. We are taking away from the bible...this is just as wrong as Mohamed adding to it with his own prophesies.

BigGunz
06-22-2004, 03:02 PM
well thats a good explanation and with that knowledge (contrary to what I always thought about Gods word) I can feel safe in saying that any Woman who claims that God spoke to her to spread his word to all and become one in his word to live the life and help others is nothing but a bold face liar because it says so in the bible!...wow....nahhh dont think I could ever do that!

Miss Mally
06-22-2004, 03:02 PM
I have heard people say they had a calling from God to preach and to spread the word of God. Who are we to say that a woman cannot recieve this calling from God? Who is to say thats what she wanted?. Yet she follows Gods will as he spoke to her? Are we to say she lied?

This is Mrs. Pianoman....

I know in my heart that I was called for a short time to lead singing at my church, to relieve a man of the possition who had his hands full with a wife who has alztimers (and NO I can't spell). It is only a short time that I feel like I am called to do this. A person could talk to me till they are blue in the face but that can not change what I know is true.

"He called me to do this and if I don't do what I am asked to do, then I am wrong. Plain and simple."

I can not quote things from the bible word for word like others, I just know in my heart what he is telling me to do. And if I am to work at being more like jesus, then I will listen and do as I am told.

:wink: :wink: 8)

But...can the Bible also talk to you till it is blue in the face...and not change what you know? Do we not have faith that the Bible is the Word of God?

I have known with all my heart before...that I was right and me hubby was wrong...on how to handle a situation or fix something...only to find later....He was right. Sometimes we want something to be sooooo sooooo bad that we are blinded to the truth.

BigGunz
06-22-2004, 03:12 PM
I have heard people say they had a calling from God to preach and to spread the word of God. Who are we to say that a woman cannot recieve this calling from God? Who is to say thats what she wanted?. Yet she follows Gods will as he spoke to her? Are we to say she lied?

This is Mrs. Pianoman....

I know in my heart that I was called for a short time to lead singing at my church, to relieve a man of the possition who had his hands full with a wife who has alztimers (and NO I can't spell). It is only a short time that I feel like I am called to do this. A person could talk to me till they are blue in the face but that can not change what I know is true.

"He called me to do this and if I don't do what I am asked to do, then I am wrong. Plain and simple."

I can not quote things from the bible word for word like others, I just know in my heart what he is telling me to do. And if I am to work at being more like jesus, then I will listen and do as I am told.

:wink: :wink: 8)

Thank you Mrs Pianoman,

No offense here and Im trying to understand this all myself...but it seems the conclusion here is that according to the Bible you are nothing more than a bold face liar....and that does not make sense to me nor does it sit well with me either...because i dont see it that way...I have always been taught to listen to when God speaks to you...and yes I have questioned things before that i thought he said but maybe I misunderstood him...turns out that what i heard the first time from God was right...And i just cant imagine saying that a woman cannot hear God as he speaks to her on a calling...that either she misunderstood him no matter how much she feels in her heart that God did speak to her or she is just lieing to everyone about it. I mean, I think when God speaks to you its usually pretty clear especially when he calls for you to spread his word in the capacity of being a minister or such. Now I know I have had times in my life when i knew that under no circumstances that i was totally correct about something and turn up later that i was just plain wrong...but that wasnt anything about God..it was like a spouse thing or child sthing...you know what i mean...those thinsg you can end up being wrong...but Gods calling to you?...

Girlie
06-22-2004, 04:30 PM
also...as far as the parable....what was Jesus trying to express to us? That our father gives us what we need. Past that....people are focusing and debating over one word...which is another thing we are told we should not do.

Whether we take the meaning of bread and stone to be literal or figurative...matters little in the point Christ was making.

It might matter little to you, but to me it matters a lot. Especially after hearing Mark Shell minister about unveiling the mysteries of God through the Holy Ghost ....

Yes, Christ will supply all our needs, but to some people, knowing that the word "bread" translates into "life" and that the stone that was spoken of represents a true stone, a black stone, that you were given for your sins ... "serpent" translates to mean "self" , etc ..............

It could mean the difference in the way someone begins living their life for Christ ... once they realize what He TRULY does for us! :)

Girlie...new Christians are to be given milk...and solid food is for those who have matured in Christ. I am glad you feel this is intersting...but can you see where for someone new to the Gospel...could also be confused by associating bread with life etc. Where they could initally get bogged down by figurative meanings...and then miss the point. I have seen this happen...people getting so confused by bread and Christ body...wine and blood...till they walk away frustrated.

Gods word is simple....and deep knowledge of history and word meanings is not needed to be able to follow Christ's way. I do not believe that doesn't mean someone with a thirst for more knowledge is wrong for seeking to understand the Greek or the Hebrew...or to understand the lives of the people then. I am simply saying that deep interpretation is not needed...

I understand what you are saying, but I was not necessarily referring to new Christians who need the milk. Yes, I know that as a new Christian, you have to take baby steps ... drink the milk because you will choke on the steak. However, I am not a new Christian and the preaching I heard on this specific passage has changed my whole outlook on what Christ has done for me. Sometimes, it is needed and it is important to know what the words translate to mean ... because it's not always what our finite minds think it is.

Mally, I'm talking about a much deeper and closer walk with Christ. I'm thinking that if people don't want to know deeper things of God, the mysteries of God, eventually they will dry up and blow away. I don't believe deep interpretation is needed for say, like the message of the cross ... but I also believe there is no limit to what one can learn from Christ ... if they walk closely with him.

When I first became a Christian, I was so hungry and thirsty for the knowledge and wisdom of God that those kinds of comparisons did not bother me ... if I did not understand something, I asked God for understanding. As a new Christian, I knew to do that through prayer. Just as you think it might turn someone off, it could turn someone on ... like it did me !!!!!!!

Girlie
06-22-2004, 04:57 PM
I have heard people say they had a calling from God to preach and to spread the word of God. Who are we to say that a woman cannot recieve this calling from God? Who is to say thats what she wanted?. Yet she follows Gods will as he spoke to her? Are we to say she lied?

I asked this question and nobody has an answer?

Big, I know a woman Pastor and she is much more knowledgeable than a lot of men Pastors that I have been under. She believes with all her heart she is called of God to preach the Gospel .... and I don't believe anyone should tell her that she isn't. Many souls have come to know Christ because she told them about Him!

I don't think God is going to condemn what she is doing. She is changing lives for God ... and that's commendable in my book !!!


I hear ya.....Im getting confused on this thread becaus eI keep hearing arguments over the womans role in life...new and Old Testament. Prophet.s prophetess this and that...claims and misclaims...on and on and on...and not once has anyone tackeled the real issue of a WOMAN being Called to serve God as a minisiter by GOD himnself...and Im still wondering with all these pros and cons and whatever going on in here can one single person sit right here right now and say that they honestly belive that if a Woman say she was called upon by God to serve him by ministering his word by becoming a pastor, minister, preacher or whatever! that she is lieing about what GOD told her?

I'm sorry if I've helped contribute to the confusion, but what I was doing by mentioning that the Prophet Isaiah (who is the author of the Book Isaiah) called his wife the "Prophetess" .... is I was stating that in support of women having high callings in the church. I have never seen where it is said that women can not be Pastors, Teachers, Prophets, Evangalists, or Preachers ... and I take the scripture that says women are to keep quiet as what someone else said. I have heard many people preach on this issue saying that Paul was speaking to a particular group of women in a church because they would interrrupt the services in trying to understand what was being preached.

None of us can say for sure what God speaks to another person. There are females in Christian leadership all over the world. In my opinion, I know the things God has called me to do ... and it becomes a mission ... it becomes something you must do ... you know with every fiber of your being that you need to do what it is God has asked you to do .... and I would never ever say that someone did not hear God correctly. That's like slapping the face of God ... and oh my ... no thanks!

Goalie
06-22-2004, 04:59 PM
May I call to your attention the following verses from Galatians Chapter 3?

26: For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27: For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Maybe I missed something here, but if the Bible is to be taken literally, how can we ignore the passages quoted by Art? It clearly says that there is no distinction between man and woman because we are all one in Christ Jesus. If there is no distinction, how can women be assigned a lesser or more silent role in the practice or teaching of the Gospel?

Miss Mally
06-22-2004, 05:06 PM
Big...you, not I are using the word lying.

I am simply saying...that we are human...and sometimes our feelings and what we want to do for God...isn't always what God wants us to do. Much like...say Peter...he felt compelled to lop of the solders ear...but that is not truely what Christ wanted from him. In Peters mind...it was appropriate...and his heart was in the right place...he was standing up for the Lord. Just because the heart is in the right place...doesn't mean we are doing the will of the Lord. This is something that truely needs the study of the scripture and true soul searching. We must always keep in mind "not mine will Lord but thy will be done".

Don't take my word for any of this...look for your answers in the bible to find out what God's will for each of us is...not from Men.

I hear alot on the other side of this issue talk about how they feel...what they think...but have not seen anyone show in scripture that God has allowed the appointment of women to possitions of authority.

Yes...Big...I believe God guides us...but we must be willing to truely be guided...open our minds and souls to his will. Do you believe the bible is the inspired word of God?

Girlie
06-22-2004, 05:08 PM
I want to share a prophesy from the book of Joel ... maybe this will help some come to their own conclusions about women's places ...

Joel 2:28-29

And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy
Your old men shall dream dreams
Your young men shall see visions
And also on My menservants and on My maidenservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

and I would also reference back to the scripture that has already been given to us earlier (I think by Art, I'd have to check) Galatians 3:28 stating that we are all equal in Christ.

Something I learned this week in the Mark Shell revival ... God made us in His image. When he sees us, He sees Himself. That blows my socks off !!!! LOL

(underline mine)

Miss Mally
06-22-2004, 05:08 PM
May I call to your attention the following verses from Galatians Chapter 3?

26: For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27: For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Maybe I missed something here, but if the Bible is to be taken literally, how can we ignore the passages quoted by Art? It clearly says that there is no distinction between man and woman because we are all one in Christ Jesus. If there is no distinction, how can women be assigned a lesser or more silent role in the practice or teaching of the Gospel?

That scripture refers to the salvation through Christ. We are all aforded the same grace and Christ died for each one of us....that doesn't mean the roles he ment for us to taken on are the same.

Two workers at a factory may be equal in the retirement they receive...but one works on the assembly line while another works in an office.

Miss Mally
06-22-2004, 05:12 PM
I want to share a prophesy from the book of Joel ... maybe this will help some come to their own conclusions about women's places ...

Joel 2:28-29

And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy
Your old men shall dream dreams
Your young men shall see visions
And also on My menservants and on My maidenservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

and I would also reference back to the scripture that has already been given to us earlier (I think by Art, I'd have to check) Galatians 3:28 stating that we are all equal in Christ.

Something I learned this week in the Mark Shell revival ... God made us in His image. When he sees us, He sees Himself. That blows my socks off !!!! LOL

(underline mine)

Girlie...I think you are missing my point. I have never said that women do not have roles to play as Christians...I have not said they would not be prophets or teachers. Never once have I said that. I have said that there is an order to things as put into place by God. Who are we to try and change that order?

you have said you believe it is okay for a woman to be a pastor....please then show me where the bible gives the qualifications for women pastors. The Bible is very specific about the qualifications for pastors.

Miss Mally
06-22-2004, 05:20 PM
May I call to your attention the following verses from Galatians Chapter 3?

26: For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27: For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Maybe I missed something here, but if the Bible is to be taken literally, how can we ignore the passages quoted by Art? It clearly says that there is no distinction between man and woman because we are all one in Christ Jesus. If there is no distinction, how can women be assigned a lesser or more silent role in the practice or teaching of the Gospel?

Who says just because we are not to have roles of authority over men...that our roles are not just as important...just as needed...that they are "lesser". Somehow...our society has come to view motherhood as a lesser role than an CEO in a fortune 500 company....but just because womens libers said that...doesn't make it so. We are all a part of the body of Christ....would you said the hands are less important than the tongue or all we all equally needed...each to fulfill our own role?

Goalie
06-22-2004, 07:19 PM
It seems to me to say that there IS NO male and there IS NO female in the eyes of God. We are ONE in Christ. If we are one, how can we have separate roles?
I don't think it's right to take the Bible literally in one place but figuratively in another. And how can we fight so hard to keep the Ten Commandments in a courthouse, but dismiss them as being "the old law"?

Miss Mally
06-22-2004, 07:31 PM
It seems to me to say that there IS NO male and there IS NO female in the eyes of God. We are ONE in Christ. If we are one, how can we have separate roles?
I don't think it's right to take the Bible literally in one place but figuratively in another. And how can we fight so hard to keep the Ten Commandments in a courthouse, but dismiss them as being "the old law"?

I fight for the right to keep the 10 commandment in a courthouse...not because they are part of my daily laws...but because there is no constitutional right for them to be removed. They are the historical basis for our current laws. Our laws are based on Judeo Christian laws.

I do take what art posted literally. I also read it in context...and do not just take those three verses. Read all of Galatians...it is in black and white...it is talking here of being under grace...of being justified by faith not the old law...and yes that applies to all...Greek and Jew..male and female. We all make up the body of Christ and we are all given the same grace our reward is equal.

I asked you truely Goalie....go read all of Timothy...both first and second...and then Titus that follows. Someone made comment that only one place designates that women not hold roles of authority...not so. The letters to Timothy and Titus were written at differing times...and to different men in different places. Read them with a desire to seak the will of God. I do not ask that you believe me....but I have hopes that you will believe in Gods word.

Gearldean
06-22-2004, 07:32 PM
It seems to me to say that there IS NO male and there IS NO female in the eyes of God. We are ONE in Christ. If we are one, how can we have separate roles?
I don't think it's right to take the Bible literally in one place but figuratively in another. And how can we fight so hard to keep the Ten Commandments in a courthouse, but dismiss them as being "the old law"?
GREAT post!

Miss Mally
06-22-2004, 07:43 PM
It seems to me to say that there IS NO male and there IS NO female in the eyes of God. We are ONE in Christ. If we are one, how can we have separate roles?
I don't think it's right to take the Bible literally in one place but figuratively in another. And how can we fight so hard to keep the Ten Commandments in a courthouse, but dismiss them as being "the old law"?
GREAT post!

Goalie...just as Paul teaches the bond man how to behave toward his master while on this earth...so he teaches us women how we are to behave.

Paul tells the slave (bondman) to be under submission to his master...and he also tells those Christians who have bondmen...how to treat them. This is no different than telling women how to conduct themselves and men how to conduct themselves. For while we are one in the reward we shall receive...we still have individual roles to play.

BigGunz
06-22-2004, 07:55 PM
Big...you, not I are using the word lying.

I am simply saying...that we are human...and sometimes our feelings and what we want to do for God...isn't always what God wants us to do. Much like...say Peter...he felt compelled to lop of the solders ear...but that is not truely what Christ wanted from him. In Peters mind...it was appropriate...and his heart was in the right place...he was standing up for the Lord. Just because the heart is in the right place...doesn't mean we are doing the will of the Lord. This is something that truely needs the study of the scripture and true soul searching. We must always keep in mind "not mine will Lord but thy will be done".

Don't take my word for any of this...look for your answers in the bible to find out what God's will for each of us is...not from Men.

I hear alot on the other side of this issue talk about how they feel...what they think...but have not seen anyone show in scripture that God has allowed the appointment of women to possitions of authority.

Yes...Big...I believe God guides us...but we must be willing to truely be guided...open our minds and souls to his will. Do you believe the bible is the inspired word of God?

Peter was doing what he FELT in his heart was right...and it wasnt right with the Lord nor was it his will ...That I understand....but what your not differintiating is just exactly that...WHAT he FELT!...Not the Lords calling.. And the calling is what Im talking about...not what a woman feels God wants here to do but what she was TOLD to do. If I choose to go with the option that is presented there can be no other alternative in the belief that what has been stated here is any other than she has to be lieing about what God Told her. What Im saying is who am I to question what God tell any of us. I cant do that. Many prophets didnt expect God to speak to them in the manner in which he did. And alot of ministers have said they didnt grow up wanting to be ministers or pastors but that God spoke to them. I cannot just ignore the fact that he does not speak to a woman the same way? Im am not there when God speaks to anyone except myself. So who am I to say he didnt tell a woman? If i take it from what is stated ..if a woman says she (out of the blue or whatever) has been called upon by God to serve him in the capacity of a Minister or Pastor that the woman is misunderstanding what God has asked of her. Anything other than acceptance of misunderstanding would be blasphemous or the woman has to be lieing about what God told her?...There are no other options here that I see! I cannot speak for God...so I cannot sit here and tell you that out of all his wonderful and mysterious ways that it is not possible for him to Call upon a woman to take her place at the Pulpit and to serve him in that capacity.

Miss Mally
06-22-2004, 08:09 PM
Big...you, not I are using the word lying.

I am simply saying...that we are human...and sometimes our feelings and what we want to do for God...isn't always what God wants us to do. Much like...say Peter...he felt compelled to lop of the solders ear...but that is not truely what Christ wanted from him. In Peters mind...it was appropriate...and his heart was in the right place...he was standing up for the Lord. Just because the heart is in the right place...doesn't mean we are doing the will of the Lord. This is something that truely needs the study of the scripture and true soul searching. We must always keep in mind "not mine will Lord but thy will be done".

Don't take my word for any of this...look for your answers in the bible to find out what God's will for each of us is...not from Men.

I hear alot on the other side of this issue talk about how they feel...what they think...but have not seen anyone show in scripture that God has allowed the appointment of women to possitions of authority.

Yes...Big...I believe God guides us...but we must be willing to truely be guided...open our minds and souls to his will. Do you believe the bible is the inspired word of God?

Peter was doing what he FELT in his heart was right...and it wasnt right with the Lord nor was it his will ...That I understand....but what your not differintiating is just exactly that...WHAT he FELT!...Not the Lords calling.. And the calling is what Im talking about...not what a woman feels God wants here to do but what she was TOLD to do. If I choose to go with the option that is presented there can be no other alternative in the belief that what has been stated here is any other than she has to be lieing about what God Told her. What Im saying is who am I to question what God tell any of us. I cant do that. Many prophets didnt expect God to speak to them in the manner in which he did. And alot of ministers have said they didnt grow up wanting to be ministers or pastors but that God spoke to them. I cannot just ignore the fact that he does not speak to a woman the same way? Im am not there when God speaks to anyone except myself. So who am I to say he didnt tell a woman? If i take it from what is stated ..if a woman says she (out of the blue or whatever) has been called upon by God to serve him in the capacity of a Minister or Pastor that the woman is misunderstanding what God has asked of her. Anything other than acceptance of misunderstanding would be blasphemous or the woman has to be lieing about what God told her?...There are no other options here that I see! I cannot speak for God...so I cannot sit here and tell you that out of all his wonderful and mysterious ways that it is not possible for him to Call upon a woman to take her place at the Pulpit and to serve him in that capacity.

So you believe..that God would call someone to do something contrary to his Word? You believe, that even though God told us in the bible...that anyone who says God is called them to do that which is different than the docterine given to us in the Bible is either a deceiver or has been deceived...no one should question them.

The bible tells us to test all things against the scripture...and those things that do not fit with the scripture...we are not to follow. We are called to judge that which is false teaching...other wise we will falter...follow that which is unwittingly not of God.

Big...you are talking here of what you have been taught...and how you feel. I am asking you...no begging you...to seak truth...to test your current beliefs against scripture...against Gods word.

BigGunz
06-22-2004, 08:33 PM
I am saying that some people here have shown proof thru other passages that God doesnt distinquish the roles for woman as much as what others claim he has...interpretations of scripture and books abound here.....and Im not going to agree or disagree with any of the people here on what they belive or fell they know from what they read or have heard in a version they feel is right. Everyne has a good valid point...and should not be condemned for their way of understanding. There is argument upon argument here about the role thru the scriptures....but that does not make any one person wrong here. In one hand it seems to me that it does not matter and all is equal (by interpretation) under the Eyes of God. And on the other hand all is not equal (by interpretation) under the eyes of God. This is not what I feel on the matter of right or wrong. Im just asking....A woman who for no apparent reason other than what she says that God has spoken to her and called upon her to serve him in the capacity has to be looked down upon because the interpretations are viewed differently by some and not by others and the conclusion is she is lieing that God spoke to her. In my opinion I dont think you can misunderstand something like that and the only other option is to say this woman is lieing and being blasphemous!

Girlie
06-22-2004, 08:48 PM
I want to share a prophesy from the book of Joel ... maybe this will help some come to their own conclusions about women's places ...

Joel 2:28-29

And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy
Your old men shall dream dreams
Your young men shall see visions
And also on My menservants and on My maidenservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

and I would also reference back to the scripture that has already been given to us earlier (I think by Art, I'd have to check) Galatians 3:28 stating that we are all equal in Christ.

Something I learned this week in the Mark Shell revival ... God made us in His image. When he sees us, He sees Himself. That blows my socks off !!!! LOL

(underline mine)

Girlie...I think you are missing my point. I have never said that women do not have roles to play as Christians...I have not said they would not be prophets or teachers. Never once have I said that. I have said that there is an order to things as put into place by God. Who are we to try and change that order?

you have said you believe it is okay for a woman to be a pastor....please then show me where the bible gives the qualifications for women pastors. The Bible is very specific about the qualifications for pastors.

I am not missing your point, just not agreeing with it.

From what I've learned and heard ministered from the pulpit, if you are a teacher, preacher, apostle, prophet, or evangalist (this is the five-fold ministry that Paul spoke of for the church, for the perfecting of the saints and the edifying of the church), then you are in a LEADERSHIP position. You are in a place of authority. You have people's blood on your hands. This would include being a leader of both men and women. If you have not said that women would not be prophets or teachers, then what are you saying? I know there are certain functions that each person must do in order to make the body of Christ work together, but I feel that a woman can be any part of that five-fold ministry and be in the will of God.

God is looking for a willing vessel in all of us and I don't think he is going to pass any of us by who are willing.

I do not have a scripture for saying "God says it is ok for women to be Pastors" ... there is much more research and gathering of the scriptures to be done to come to that conclusion. I would have to write a sermon, haha. The fact that a Prophet of the Lord called his wife a Prophetess is only one of the examples I have for basing my beliefs on this. Women are called to teach the younger women ... in my opinion, to do this, they would have to be a leader, a shepherd, a pastor, an overseer of a group of women. I don't know about you, but I'm not going to listen to just any person out there about how God wants me to raise my family and build my home. Outside of my own studies, I want to hear it from someone who knows they are called by God.

Goalie
06-22-2004, 09:14 PM
New Living Translation of Romans 16:


1Our sister Phoebe, a deacon in the church in Cenchrea, will be coming to see you soon. 2Receive her in the Lord, as one who is worthy of high honor. Help her in every way you can, for she has helped many in their needs, including me.


Now, one could argue that the NLT version of the Bible isn't THE true Bible... but will you agree that neither is the KJV?

Miss Mally
06-22-2004, 09:36 PM
Colossians 2

4. Now this I say lest anyone should deceive you with persuasive words. 5 For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the steadfastness of you faith in Christ. 6As you therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 Rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in thanksgiving. 8. Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

Timothy 3 verse 13 impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing who you have learned them. 15. and that from childhood you have known the holy scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction and for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Chapter 4 3. for the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

Miss Mally
06-22-2004, 09:44 PM
New Living Translation of Romans 16:


1Our sister Phoebe, a deacon in the church in Cenchrea, will be coming to see you soon. 2Receive her in the Lord, as one who is worthy of high honor. Help her in every way you can, for she has helped many in their needs, including me.


Now, one could argue that the NLT version of the Bible isn't THE true Bible... but will you agree that neither is the KJV?

have i once said a woman could not be a deaconess....no. Deaconess is a greek term to describe anyone who works in the service of the Lord. We all are called to be servants.

I personally used the American Standard...as it is a direct literal translation from the Greek and Hebrew and not a translation from the latin which was a translation from the Greek and Hebrew. Just my personal preference...and in no way means that other translations are wrong. I have faith that God protects his word.

my American Standard reads as follows.

I commend unto you Phoebe our sister, who is a servant of the church that is at Cenchreae:

God tells the women how they are to serve...it is in Timothy. Have you read it yet? or is that a book you are avoiding?

Miss Mally
06-22-2004, 09:58 PM
I want to share a prophesy from the book of Joel ... maybe this will help some come to their own conclusions about women's places ...

Joel 2:28-29

And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy
Your old men shall dream dreams
Your young men shall see visions
And also on My menservants and on My maidenservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

and I would also reference back to the scripture that has already been given to us earlier (I think by Art, I'd have to check) Galatians 3:28 stating that we are all equal in Christ.

Something I learned this week in the Mark Shell revival ... God made us in His image. When he sees us, He sees Himself. That blows my socks off !!!! LOL

(underline mine)

Girlie...I think you are missing my point. I have never said that women do not have roles to play as Christians...I have not said they would not be prophets or teachers. Never once have I said that. I have said that there is an order to things as put into place by God. Who are we to try and change that order?

you have said you believe it is okay for a woman to be a pastor....please then show me where the bible gives the qualifications for women pastors. The Bible is very specific about the qualifications for pastors.

I am not missing your point, just not agreeing with it.

From what I've learned and heard ministered from the pulpit, if you are a teacher, preacher, apostle, prophet, or evangalist (this is the five-fold ministry that Paul spoke of for the church, for the perfecting of the saints and the edifying of the church), then you are in a LEADERSHIP position. You are in a place of authority. You have people's blood on your hands. This would include being a leader of both men and women. If you have not said that women would not be prophets or teachers, then what are you saying? I know there are certain functions that each person must do in order to make the body of Christ work together, but I feel that a woman can be any part of that five-fold ministry and be in the will of God.

God is looking for a willing vessel in all of us and I don't think he is going to pass any of us by who are willing.

I do not have a scripture for saying "God says it is ok for women to be Pastors" ... there is much more research and gathering of the scriptures to be done to come to that conclusion. I would have to write a sermon, haha. The fact that a Prophet of the Lord called his wife a Prophetess is only one of the examples I have for basing my beliefs on this. Women are called to teach the younger women ... in my opinion, to do this, they would have to be a leader, a shepherd, a pastor, an overseer of a group of women. I don't know about you, but I'm not going to listen to just any person out there about how God wants me to raise my family and build my home. Outside of my own studies, I want to hear it from someone who knows they are called by God.

When I was speaking of leadership roles I was refering to possitions of authority over men. The Bible tells us in several places....Timothy being one of them....

Timothy chapter 2 verse 11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 and I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.

I do believe women can serve...they can teach the non believer, those who are lost, children and other women in the church....we are given examples of this. But...we are told more than once that women can not be in possitions of authority over the men of the Church. We are told what the Qualifications of a pastor are

Timothy 3 verse 2 a pastor then must be blameless, the husband of of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach;
3 not give to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his house well, having his children in submission with all reverence. 5 for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the Church of God? 6 not a novice, lest he be puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil.
I don't know how it gets much clearer. I am not sure what you have and haven't been taught from the pulpit...but we are told to test all teaching against the scripture. Any teaching that contridicts the scripture is a false teaching.

souldancefree
06-22-2004, 10:12 PM
by girly

Something I learned this week in the Mark Shell revival ... God made us in His image. When he sees us, He sees Himself. That blows my socks off !!!! LOL

By mally


Gods word is simple....and deep knowledge of history and word meanings is not needed to be able to follow Christ's way

wooo that guy is awesome! He knocked my socks off too! maybe some of the others should go see him next time! *coughmallycough* anyways girli covered it pretty well but one has to grow spiritually all the time. you cant do that without deeper interpretation. A christian will become WEAK without growing. Hmmmmm i wonder what happens when a christian become week? The preaching gets old cause it not helping them grow so the leave church. Hopefully to find another one but maybe they arnt strong enough because they are so WEAK! (hope that made sense lol) anyways, how is one suppose to grow if the hear the same stuff at the same level all the time? explain that one to me i like to hear it. (then again... it cant be explained because its not possible to grow without deeper interpretation.)

souldancefree
06-22-2004, 10:15 PM
was Deborah not a JUDGE in the old testement? :idea: woman! God does work in mysterious ways!

BigGunz
06-22-2004, 10:25 PM
seems to me that nobody but a few follow the old testament...now its the new testament...whats next?... The newer testament?....Why isnt the HOLY Bible the HOLY Bible...and Versions?....ughhhhhhhhhhh!

Miss Mally
06-22-2004, 10:35 PM
by girly

Something I learned this week in the Mark Shell revival ... God made us in His image. When he sees us, He sees Himself. That blows my socks off !!!! LOL

By mally


Gods word is simple....and deep knowledge of history and word meanings is not needed to be able to follow Christ's way

wooo that guy is awesome! He knocked my socks off too! maybe some of the others should go see him next time! *coughmallycough* anyways girli covered it pretty well but one has to grow spiritually all the time. you cant do that without deeper interpretation. A christian will become WEAK without growing. Hmmmmm i wonder what happens when a christian become week? The preaching gets old cause it not helping them grow so the leave church. Hopefully to find another one but maybe they arnt strong enough because they are so WEAK! (hope that made sense lol) anyways, how is one suppose to grow if the hear the same stuff at the same level all the time? explain that one to me i like to hear it. (then again... it cant be explained because its not possible to grow without deeper interpretation.)

I have met few who know all the scripture with out the deeper meaning. I have met few who have studied the bible well enough to quote it from beginning to end.

People leave the church...not because they need deeper interpretation...but because no one is tickling the ears. Because they are going to Church to be entertained instead of being there to do the will of God and worship him.

Miss Mally
06-22-2004, 10:40 PM
was Deborah not a JUDGE in the old testement? :idea: woman! God does work in mysterious ways!

We are not Jews Soul...Deborah was a judge in the old testement. We are under the new law...and find our roles as Christians under the New Covenent.
If we do not want to follow the New Covenent....why do we profess to be Christians. If we are so enamored of the old law...why not become Jews?

Girlie
06-22-2004, 10:41 PM
seems to me that nobody but a few follow the old testament...now its the new testament...whats next?... The newer testament?....Why isnt the HOLY Bible the HOLY Bible...and Versions?....ughhhhhhhhhhh!

Well, I'm just wondering how many actually cover their heads when they pray and prophecy ... like the new testament records in letters from Paul.

How many actually have the baptism of the Holy Spirit and pray in other tongues?

How many don't adorn themselves with jewels and things ...

I could go on but I'll spare you, lol.

We do have to take into consideration some of the circumstances that were going on in the times that Paul wrote these letters. While I believe Paul was a servant of the Lord, I have to take into consideration that he allowed women to pray and prophecy in one church, and told them in another to keep quiet. There must have been a reason ... like things were not in order in a certain church.

Oh my gosh, my eyes are blurry from reading so much tonight. LOL

I love being in the Word of God, though.

BigGunz
06-22-2004, 10:49 PM
I think it boils down to "literaaly" and "figuratively" in the way people look at the teachings. We progress in life and keep the word of God close at hand yet on the other hand some people will only follow to an extent and will say..."well we live in a different time and age!

Miss Mally
06-22-2004, 10:52 PM
seems to me that nobody but a few follow the old testament...now its the new testament...whats next?... The newer testament?....Why isnt the HOLY Bible the HOLY Bible...and Versions?....ughhhhhhhhhhh!

Well, I'm just wondering how many actually cover their heads when they pray and prophecy ... like the new testament records in letters from Paul.

How many actually have the baptism of the Holy Spirit and pray in other tongues?

How many don't adorn themselves with jewels and things ...

I could go on but I'll spare you, lol.

We do have to take into consideration some of the circumstances that were going on in the times that Paul wrote these letters. While I believe Paul was a servant of the Lord, I have to take into consideration that he allowed women to pray and prophecy in one church, and told them in another to keep quiet. There must have been a reason ... like things were not in order in a certain church.

Oh my gosh, my eyes are blurry from reading so much tonight. LOL

I love being in the Word of God, though.

if you read on about women having their heads covered...what does it say God gave them to cover their heads? It is very specific...hair...we are not to cut it off as a mans hair.

i pray in church....I find no scripture where we are not allowed to pray in church...just not to do so out loud in a leadership role. I don't see where this contridicts itself in anyway. Paul did not just tell this to the Church in Corinth....as he also tells Timothy to take the same teaching to the church he was teaching at...and he tells Titus the same thing to be taken to another Church.

I am astounded at the thought that we will put more credence into what people have taught us from the pulpit...than in the scripture we all as Christians have faith is the inspired Word of God.

I have heard teaching from the pulpit in the Church of Christ that was false. My husband and me walked out...as we did not want this false doctorine to be learned by our children. At a later time...my husband took the preacher aside...and with scripture...showed the preacher where he had erred. We all are human and therefore err...but the scripture is divine...and it is what we are called to follow in its fullness....not just the bits and pieces we like.

As for being baptized with the Holy Spirit...I don't know about you Girlie...but yes I was. The Holy Spirit is with me daily and interceds for me.

Miss Mally
06-22-2004, 10:57 PM
seems to me that nobody but a few follow the old testament...now its the new testament...whats next?... The newer testament?....Why isnt the HOLY Bible the HOLY Bible...and Versions?....ughhhhhhhhhhh!

Well, I'm just wondering how many actually cover their heads when they pray and prophecy ... like the new testament records in letters from Paul.

How many actually have the baptism of the Holy Spirit and pray in other tongues?

How many don't adorn themselves with jewels and things ...

I could go on but I'll spare you, lol.

We do have to take into consideration some of the circumstances that were going on in the times that Paul wrote these letters. While I believe Paul was a servant of the Lord, I have to take into consideration that he allowed women to pray and prophecy in one church, and told them in another to keep quiet. There must have been a reason ... like things were not in order in a certain church.

Oh my gosh, my eyes are blurry from reading so much tonight. LOL

I love being in the Word of God, though.

What church did Paul allow women to have a role of authority over men? I have asked and asked for an example....

I have also brought up the teachings in Timothy multiple times...but no one...NOT one person seems to want to address these. Why?

Anonymous
06-22-2004, 11:01 PM
*SCREAM!* What is up with this? in reading these post (all seven pages!) I've come to the conclusion that the old testament is invalid and that the lessons that Saul learned, the wisdom that solomon spoke and exhibited, and the prophets of old spoke against is just a bunch of Rubbish!!!! The ten commandments, for example, may be the "old law" but they are guidelines for our lives. I know that in the NT it's said that we don't have to abide by the nit-n-gritty laws of diet and work and slavery, but wow, does that mean that now, we don't have to go to church? How many of us don't go to church any way because of "hypocrits" that say one thing and do the other. Whoa! I'm one of those [hypocritical] people! I admit it! How many of us no longer honor our parents because they are old and senile and we know best? That's what the bible was talking about! That we care for our aging parents! Who wouldn't want to live long and prosper? And God didn't tell us we had to follow the OT laws, but how many of us do that anyway? What I seem to hear is a bunch of Laws and not Love for God, thirsting for God, hungering for God... Like the woman at the well???

Religion and laws don't get us anywhere, and neither does arguing about who's right and who's wrong! Tha's why there's so much turmoil in the middle east!!!! Sheesh. just when I thought I was argumentative!!!!!

BigGunz
06-22-2004, 11:13 PM
this is not mine but found this interesting anyways:

You tell us that baptism is absolutely necessary to go to heaven. If there was a man so good that he never offended God, and if he died without baptism. he would go to hell, never having given any offense to God? If he goes to hell, then God must not love all good people, since he throws one into the fire. You teach us that God existed before the heaven and earth. if he did, where did he live, since there was neither heaven nor earth? You say that the angels were created in the beginning of the world, and that those who disobeyed were cast into hell. How can that be so, since you say angels sinned before earth's creation and hell is in the depths of the earth? You declare that those who go to hell do not come out of it, and yet you relate stories of the damned who have appeared in the world_ how is that to be understood? Ah, how I would like to kill devils, since they do so much harm! But if they are made like men and some are even among men, do they still feel the fire of hell? Why is it that they do not repent fir having offended God? If they did repent, would not God be merciful to them? If our Lord has suffered for all sinners, why do not they recieve pardon from him? You say that the virgin, mother of Jesus Christ, is not God, and that she has never offended God. You also say that her Son has redeemed all men, and atoned for all; but if she has done nothing wrong, her Son could not redeem her nor atone for her?...this was written by 12-15 yr old young seminarians to the Jesuit Father Paul LeJeune in the late 1630's.

Girlie
06-22-2004, 11:16 PM
My study bible goes into detail about the coverings for women's heads ... and it is not limited to hair. Again, here is where you must have knowledge of the customs of the men and women in biblical days.

Paul recognized that women in the church prayed and prophesied ... yet his letters to Timothy and Titus state that the women should be quiet, they are not permitted to speak. This is a discrepancy ... and God's word never contradicts itself ... so that's where I feel there is an explanation that none of us have for why he would say this for one church.

I am not intending for it to sound like I have put more credence into what comes from the pulpit ... I have mentioned many many times that I have formed my beliefs from both what I've heard and learned from the pulpit AND my own studies and time with God.

I believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues. I was just saying ... how many people actually practice this?

Girlie
06-22-2004, 11:20 PM
*SCREAM!* What is up with this? in reading these post (all seven pages!) I've come to the conclusion that the old testament is invalid and that the lessons that Saul learned, the wisdom that solomon spoke and exhibited, and the prophets of old spoke against is just a bunch of Rubbish!!!! The ten commandments, for example, may be the "old law" but they are guidelines for our lives. I know that in the NT it's said that we don't have to abide by the nit-n-gritty laws of diet and work and slavery, but wow, does that mean that now, we don't have to go to church? How many of us don't go to church any way because of "hypocrits" that say one thing and do the other. Whoa! I'm one of those [hypocritical] people! I admit it! How many of us no longer honor our parents because they are old and senile and we know best? That's what the bible was talking about! That we care for our aging parents! Who wouldn't want to live long and prosper? And God didn't tell us we had to follow the OT laws, but how many of us do that anyway? What I seem to hear is a bunch of Laws and not Love for God, thirsting for God, hungering for God... Like the woman at the well???

Religion and laws don't get us anywhere, and neither does arguing about who's right and who's wrong! Tha's why there's so much turmoil in the middle east!!!! Sheesh. just when I thought I was argumentative!!!!!

Hey SuperChick ... sorry if I have come across as argumentative. I don't think MissMally sees it that way, either. I have really enjoyed this "discussion" ....

Girlie
06-22-2004, 11:29 PM
seems to me that nobody but a few follow the old testament...now its the new testament...whats next?... The newer testament?....Why isnt the HOLY Bible the HOLY Bible...and Versions?....ughhhhhhhhhhh!

Well, I'm just wondering how many actually cover their heads when they pray and prophecy ... like the new testament records in letters from Paul.

How many actually have the baptism of the Holy Spirit and pray in other tongues?

How many don't adorn themselves with jewels and things ...

I could go on but I'll spare you, lol.

We do have to take into consideration some of the circumstances that were going on in the times that Paul wrote these letters. While I believe Paul was a servant of the Lord, I have to take into consideration that he allowed women to pray and prophecy in one church, and told them in another to keep quiet. There must have been a reason ... like things were not in order in a certain church.

Oh my gosh, my eyes are blurry from reading so much tonight. LOL

I love being in the Word of God, though.

What church did Paul allow women to have a role of authority over men? I have asked and asked for an example....

I have also brought up the teachings in Timothy multiple times...but no one...NOT one person seems to want to address these. Why?

I'm still working through that. Paul addressed the church at Corinth with the knowledge and acceptance that the women prayed and prophesied in church. However, he addressed Timothy and Titus saying that the women should not speak.

Why would he address one church one way and another a different way?

Could it be that there was unresolved conflict in one and not the other?

God's word, as I have said before on here, does not contradict itself. He would not say for one church to pray and prophesy and tell another to keep silent.

souldancefree
06-22-2004, 11:30 PM
by girly

Something I learned this week in the Mark Shell revival ... God made us in His image. When he sees us, He sees Himself. That blows my socks off !!!! LOL

By mally


Gods word is simple....and deep knowledge of history and word meanings is not needed to be able to follow Christ's way

wooo that guy is awesome! He knocked my socks off too! maybe some of the others should go see him next time! *coughmallycough* anyways girli covered it pretty well but one has to grow spiritually all the time. you cant do that without deeper interpretation. A christian will become WEAK without growing. Hmmmmm i wonder what happens when a christian become week? The preaching gets old cause it not helping them grow so the leave church. Hopefully to find another one but maybe they arnt strong enough because they are so WEAK! (hope that made sense lol) anyways, how is one suppose to grow if the hear the same stuff at the same level all the time? explain that one to me i like to hear it. (then again... it cant be explained because its not possible to grow without deeper interpretation.)

I have met few who know all the scripture with out the deeper meaning. I have met few who have studied the bible well enough to quote it from beginning to end.

People leave the church...not because they need deeper interpretation...but because no one is tickling the ears. Because they are going to Church to be entertained instead of being there to do the will of God and worship him.


whatever...one has to be fed greater and greater stuff in order to grow Spirtitually, not baby food. I know casue ive changed churches and have felt the change.


Im not gonna spare it....

SOMEONE said,

we are also told not to add to or take away from the scriptures....


why do some leave out all that went on in acts about tounges of fire etc??? paul even tells us what to do and how to use tounges in 1 Cor. explain why so many leave that part out...

I believe SOMEONE said something along the lines of... "shouldn't we put our faith in the whole thing....not just the parts we pick out that we like?" so do u not like that part or somthing??? its kinda hypocritical to me. and its making me very angry.

by the way it feels real great when your siblings come home crying because SOMEONE at school tells them that they are going to hell because we let women speek in the church.

Miss Mally
06-22-2004, 11:32 PM
*SCREAM!* What is up with this? in reading these post (all seven pages!) I've come to the conclusion that the old testament is invalid and that the lessons that Saul learned, the wisdom that solomon spoke and exhibited, and the prophets of old spoke against is just a bunch of Rubbish!!!! The ten commandments, for example, may be the "old law" but they are guidelines for our lives. I know that in the NT it's said that we don't have to abide by the nit-n-gritty laws of diet and work and slavery, but wow, does that mean that now, we don't have to go to church? How many of us don't go to church any way because of "hypocrits" that say one thing and do the other. Whoa! I'm one of those [hypocritical] people! I admit it! How many of us no longer honor our parents because they are old and senile and we know best? That's what the bible was talking about! That we care for our aging parents! Who wouldn't want to live long and prosper? And God didn't tell us we had to follow the OT laws, but how many of us do that anyway? What I seem to hear is a bunch of Laws and not Love for God, thirsting for God, hungering for God... Like the woman at the well???

Religion and laws don't get us anywhere, and neither does arguing about who's right and who's wrong! Tha's why there's so much turmoil in the middle east!!!! Sheesh. just when I thought I was argumentative!!!!!

The New Testament covers all things...if we follow the teachings of the New...we are told not just to respect our parents but to care for them in their old age....we are taught that yes Adultry as an act is sinful...but that even to lust after someone in our heart is just as sinful. Jesus gives us real meaning to the Old Law...he interprets it for us. Therefore we no longer need the old.

Miss Mally
06-22-2004, 11:38 PM
seems to me that nobody but a few follow the old testament...now its the new testament...whats next?... The newer testament?....Why isnt the HOLY Bible the HOLY Bible...and Versions?....ughhhhhhhhhhh!

Well, I'm just wondering how many actually cover their heads when they pray and prophecy ... like the new testament records in letters from Paul.

How many actually have the baptism of the Holy Spirit and pray in other tongues?

How many don't adorn themselves with jewels and things ...

I could go on but I'll spare you, lol.

We do have to take into consideration some of the circumstances that were going on in the times that Paul wrote these letters. While I believe Paul was a servant of the Lord, I have to take into consideration that he allowed women to pray and prophecy in one church, and told them in another to keep quiet. There must have been a reason ... like things were not in order in a certain church.

Oh my gosh, my eyes are blurry from reading so much tonight. LOL

I love being in the Word of God, though.

What church did Paul allow women to have a role of authority over men? I have asked and asked for an example....

I have also brought up the teachings in Timothy multiple times...but no one...NOT one person seems to want to address these. Why?

I'm still working through that. Paul addressed the church at Corinth with the knowledge and acceptance that the women prayed and prophesied in church. However, he addressed Timothy and Titus saying that the women should not speak.

Why would he address one church one way and another a different way?

Could it be that there was unresolved conflict in one and not the other?

God's word, as I have said before on here, does not contradict itself. He would not say for one church to pray and prophesy and tell another to keep silent.

Paul acknowledges that women were speaking and praying in the Church at Corinth...but he did not approve it. In Fact...read closely chapter 16 verses 34 and 35...he tells women to keep silent in the churches...for they are not permitted to speak.

Anonymous
06-22-2004, 11:42 PM
ey are guidelines for our lives. I know that in the NT it's said that we don't have to abide by the nit-n-gritty laws of diet and work and slavery, but wow, does that mean that now, we don't have to go to church? How many of us don't go to church any way because of "hypocrits" that say one thing and do the other. Whoa! I'm one of those [hypocritical] people! I admit it! How many of us no longer honor our parents because they are old and senile and we know best? That's what the bible was talking about! That we care for our aging parents! Who wouldn't want to live long and prosper? And God didn't tell us we had to follow the OT laws, but how many of us do that anyway? What I seem to hear is a bunch of Laws and not Love for God, thirsting for God, hungering for God... Like the woman at the well???

Religion and laws don't get us anywhere, and neither does arguing about who's right and who's wrong! Tha's why there's so much turmoil in the middle east!!!! Sheesh. just when I thought I was argumentative!!!!!

Hey SuperChick ... sorry if I have come across as argumentative. I don't think MissMally sees it that way, either. I have really enjoyed this "discussion" .... [/quote]
I wasn't meaning to say that you were argumentative (I am, in my own lil way) I was just saying that this argument pales to the crisis in the middle east! BTW. does anyone ever sleep???

Miss Mally
06-22-2004, 11:42 PM
by girly

Something I learned this week in the Mark Shell revival ... God made us in His image. When he sees us, He sees Himself. That blows my socks off !!!! LOL

By mally


Gods word is simple....and deep knowledge of history and word meanings is not needed to be able to follow Christ's way

wooo that guy is awesome! He knocked my socks off too! maybe some of the others should go see him next time! *coughmallycough* anyways girli covered it pretty well but one has to grow spiritually all the time. you cant do that without deeper interpretation. A christian will become WEAK without growing. Hmmmmm i wonder what happens when a christian become week? The preaching gets old cause it not helping them grow so the leave church. Hopefully to find another one but maybe they arnt strong enough because they are so WEAK! (hope that made sense lol) anyways, how is one suppose to grow if the hear the same stuff at the same level all the time? explain that one to me i like to hear it. (then again... it cant be explained because its not possible to grow without deeper interpretation.)

I have met few who know all the scripture with out the deeper meaning. I have met few who have studied the bible well enough to quote it from beginning to end.

People leave the church...not because they need deeper interpretation...but because no one is tickling the ears. Because they are going to Church to be entertained instead of being there to do the will of God and worship him.


whatever...one has to be fed greater and greater stuff in order to grow Spirtitually, not baby food. I know casue ive changed churches and have felt the change.


Im not gonna spare it....

SOMEONE said,

we are also told not to add to or take away from the scriptures....


why do some leave out all that went on in acts about tounges of fire etc??? paul even tells us what to do and how to use tounges in 1 Cor. explain why so many leave that part out...

I believe SOMEONE said something along the lines of... "shouldn't we put our faith in the whole thing....not just the parts we pick out that we like?" so do u not like that part or somthing??? its kinda hypocritical to me. and its making me very angry.

by the way it feels real great when your siblings come home crying because SOMEONE at school tells them that they are going to hell because we let women speek in the church.

Soul....I do not know why some leave out the speaking in tongues from Acts....i have never been taught this way. Just because some leave it out...doesn't make it right that they do so. I can not answer to why some teach this way...I believe in the bible. I believe in its teachings and I do not believe in any teachings that contridict it.

Girlie...please show me in the Bible...where it says that the only proof of being baptised in the Holy Spirit is the ability to speak in tongues. I can not find it. I do find where Paul teaches us that some are given the gift of prophesy, and some of tongues and others healing. But not all are given the same talents and gifts of the Spirit.

Miss Mally
06-22-2004, 11:45 PM
Soul...you sound a bit angry. I am sorry if I have been the cause of that. You asked this question on this forum...and so I gave my view and scripture etc. I would not have entered into this if I had not felt you wanted an honest answer. Have I said anything that was not scripturally sound? If so...please show me.

Anonymous
06-22-2004, 11:55 PM
What I was getting at miss mally was that it seems to me that the teachings of Solomon are now null because only a handful of Proverbs were mentioned in the the NT. What about jeremiah 29:11 in which we are assured that God does have a plan for us? And what about the end times prophecies of Daniel?? Are they void because they are never mentioned in the NT? What I hear you saying is the old testament in its entirety (except what is specifically mentioned in the NT) is void and fallable.

While Jesus does mention some OT Law in His many oratories and parables, some of it is still practiced. You cannot say that you are honoring your parents while you are allowing your offspring to be exclusive in who they are friends with. Grandchildren are the joy of their Grandparents. Oh, but wait. tha's OT. I forgot. The Old is gone and forever null.

And There is a Time for everything, a time to mourn and a time to rejoice. oops. I did it again. tha's not mentioned in the nt, so it must be irrelevent to today. Too bad it's in a song.

And if women are not allowed to be worship leaders, I guess we should forget singing "Shout to the Lord" or even some of Fanny Crosby's old hymns. Because women's role in the church is basically to teach lil 'uns and not to help lead a large group.

I guess I should just throw out two books of the bible because they are about women.

Is it just me or is this whole thing laughable??? HAHAHA! I'm Cirano debergerac!!! (I always loved that wishbone episode!)

Anonymous
06-22-2004, 11:56 PM
Have I said anything that was not scripturally sound? If so...please show me. Elders and pastors are NOT the same. Pastors preach, and elders are like prayer support for the pastor and the church... http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1TIM+4&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on 1 Timothy 4 is a passage you can read about it.

The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor. 1 Timothy 5:17

Deacons have a different role than elders, pastors have a different role than deacons or elders, though some of them may be similar. Think of a mom and a teacher. Both are responsible for children, but they're jobs and roles are different.

Miss Mally
06-23-2004, 12:04 AM
What I was getting at miss mally was that it seems to me that the teachings of Solomon are now null because only a handful of Proverbs were mentioned in the the NT. What about jeremiah 29:11 in which we are assured that God does have a plan for us? And what about the end times prophecies of Daniel?? Are they void because they are never mentioned in the NT? What I hear you saying is the old testament in its entirety (except what is specifically mentioned in the NT) is void and fallable.

While Jesus does mention some OT Law in His many oratories and parables, some of it is still practiced. You cannot say that you are honoring your parents while you are allowing your offspring to be exclusive in who they are friends with. Grandchildren are the joy of their Grandparents. Oh, but wait. tha's OT. I forgot. The Old is gone and forever null.

And There is a Time for everything, a time to mourn and a time to rejoice. oops. I did it again. tha's not mentioned in the nt, so it must be irrelevent to today. Too bad it's in a song.

And if women are not allowed to be worship leaders, I guess we should forget singing "Shout to the Lord" or even some of Fanny Crosby's old hymns. Because women's role in the church is basically to teach lil 'uns and not to help lead a large group.

I guess I should just throw out two books of the bible because they are about women.

Is it just me or is this whole thing laughable??? HAHAHA! I'm Cirano debergerac!!! (I always loved that wishbone episode!)

okay....we are not governed under the old law...we are not governed by the teachings of the old testament. That does not mean I do not study the old testament....all scripture is good. Do you not believe when the New Testament tells us...that we should not be governed by the old? That if we follow one letter of the old law...then we are bound by the whole?

I do not mean to say that we should not study the Old...for in it...is the prophesies and history leading up to Christ. I did not say that the old was a lie...false and not to be believed. I did not say it was to be tossed aside. But there is no salvation in following the old law. Isn't that why we are Christians....because we Love God and seek to follow his will....to seek his grace and salvation? By living by some of the old laws...the same mistake is made that the Jews made and both Paul and Peter spoke out against. Jesus to spoke out against...and was called a blasphmer...and was hung on a cross to die for our sins. If he was condemned for adding perfection and for bring us a new covenent....do we not hang him on the cross over and over when we allow ourselves to be bound by the old law? The old law was not in perfection....Jesus came to bring perfection.

Miss Mally
06-23-2004, 12:18 AM
Have I said anything that was not scripturally sound? If so...please show me. Elders and pastors are NOT the same. Pastors preach, and elders are like prayer support for the pastor and the church... http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1TIM+4&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on 1 Timothy 4 is a passage you can read about it.

The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor. 1 Timothy 5:17

Deacons have a different role than elders, pastors have a different role than deacons or elders, though some of them may be similar. Think of a mom and a teacher. Both are responsible for children, but they're jobs and roles are different.

Pastor, Elder and Bishop all mean the same thing.

Main Entry: 1pas·tor
Pronunciation: 'pas-t&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English pastour, from Middle French, from Latin pastor herdsman, from pascere to feed -- more at FOOD
: a spiritual overseer; especially : a clergyman serving a local church or parish


Are not the elders the herdsman and spiritual over seers of the church? That is what the bible tells us.

Timothy chapter 4:17 Let the Elders who rule well be counted of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine.

This is one of those areas where having a full knowledge of Greek and Latin help...and I am not an expert on either...but...the word for pastor translates as herdsman as does elder and bishop. They are used interchangably.

Many today have begun calling anyone who teaches a pastor...but pastor doesn't simply mean teacher.

souldancefree
06-23-2004, 12:18 AM
tounges is POWER everone who wants it can have it. Ive seen it ive felt it the Bible says a "gift" therefore anyone can recieve why would God keep such a wonderfull gift from anybody? sometimes from experiences you just KNOW. tounges build you up and keep you strong. i honestly dont know how anyone can stay strong without it.

*to be perfectly honest eastland spin was getting Really boring and thats why i mad this thread cause i knew it would make me made :D so forgive me*

souldancefree
06-23-2004, 12:23 AM
Soul....I do not know why some leave out the speaking in tongues from Acts....i have never been taught this way. Just because some leave it out...doesn't make it right that they do so. I can not answer to why some teach this way...I believe in the bible. I believe in its teachings and I do not believe in any teachings that contridict it.

answer not good enough for me, although im happy you didnt completely avoid it like last time on the old board. many times on here youve said that we are not suppose to add or take away anything and not to focus on one scripture or just pick out the one we like. and again right hear you have stated "I believe in the bible. I believe in its teachings and I do not believe in any teachings that contridict it" so why not that one? its not contridicted and it so incredibly beautiful and powerfull.

Miss Mally
06-23-2004, 12:33 AM
Soul....I do not know why some leave out the speaking in tongues from Acts....i have never been taught this way. Just because some leave it out...doesn't make it right that they do so. I can not answer to why some teach this way...I believe in the bible. I believe in its teachings and I do not believe in any teachings that contridict it.

answer not good enough for me, although im happy you didnt completely avoid it like last time on the old board. many times on here youve said that we are not suppose to add or take away anything and not to focus on one scripture or just pick out the one we like. and again right hear you have stated "I believe in the bible. I believe in its teachings and I do not believe in any teachings that contridict it" so why not that one? its not contridicted and it so incredibly beautiful and powerfull.

I am sorry if you felt I avoided it...not my intention...I guess I missed it. Let me be very clear....the bible says people spoke in tongues. I believe they did. I believe there are different types of speaking in tongues...as the bible tells us there is. I believe that speaking in tongues can mean...speaking in different languages so that people from those other languages can understand what is being said and be brought closer to the Knowledge of Christ. I believe in speaking in the tongues of angels...which is a tongue that men do not understand...and which Paul tells us is not to be done unless someone has the ability to interpret...as it causes confussion. This is a way of speaking to God...and can be understood by him. If there is no interpreter...it is to be done in silence and the speaking is only to be done between that person and God.

I Corinthians 14:27-28 If anyone speaks in tongues, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in Church, and let him speak to himself and to God.

I hope this clarifies things a bit. I was lost about what you were refering to as offensive. I did not mean to ignore your query....I must have missed it.

souldancefree
06-23-2004, 12:45 AM
ok that was a better answer, although there are still many many questions in my mind i will keep them to myself for now :)

Miss Mally
06-23-2004, 12:52 AM
ok that was a better answer, although there are still many many questions in my mind i will keep them to myself for now :)

save them for tomorrow...as I must be off to bed. :)

BigGunz
06-23-2004, 01:05 AM
Ok I read it...and its late and I just may be on the wrong track here...I read Timothy 1 an 2 and Titus...like I said its late and im tired...but while this is on my mind Im going to say it anyways right or wrong and i can be corrected later....What confuses me is the fact that Paul specifically tells Timothy that a Pastor must NOT be a drinker...yet he tells Timothy its ok for him since he has stomach ailments? Then later says the pators should not be heavy drinkers?...now thats confusing....and if we follow what Paul says is it not to reason that the women here are disobeying Gods word by not being silent? I mena thats what im gathering by reading!...or is it back to interpretation?...Or am I going to be asked what bible im reading and if its not the same as everyone elses then its the wrong version?...Is it still not Gods word?...Im tired...blast me tomorrow.......lol....im going to bed now! :D

Miss Mally
06-23-2004, 02:01 AM
Ok I read it...and its late and I just may be on the wrong track here...I read Timothy 1 an 2 and Titus...like I said its late and im tired...but while this is on my mind Im going to say it anyways right or wrong and i can be corrected later....What confuses me is the fact that Paul specifically tells Timothy that a Pastor must NOT be a drinker...yet he tells Timothy its ok for him since he has stomach ailments? Then later says the pators should not be heavy drinkers?...now thats confusing....and if we follow what Paul says is it not to reason that the women here are disobeying Gods word by not being silent? I mena thats what im gathering by reading!...or is it back to interpretation?...Or am I going to be asked what bible im reading and if its not the same as everyone elses then its the wrong version?...Is it still not Gods word?...Im tired...blast me tomorrow.......lol....im going to bed now! :D

First of all...Timothy was not a pastor...but a preacher...and there is a difference. How do we know this you ask? hahahahaha

Because...Timothy was a young man...and pastors were to have a family...wife and kids...Timothy didn't yet.

Paul was not a pastor...as he never married. He was an apolostle and a preacher.

Peter...who was an apostle was an elder (pastor). How do we know this? Because he tells us he was in Peter. Peter meet all the qualifications...he was the husband of one wife...he had children who were followers...a son Mark etc.

Now...Paul didn't tell Timothy to become a sot. His said a little wine. lol

As to speaking on this forum...I have been waiting for that one. hahahaahahaha...and am not in the least surprised it was you that brought it up.

Every passage that I have read in discussing women be silent...is within the confines of the Church. Is this a thin line...you better believe it...and i walk it precariously. Like Pricilla (not that I am claiming to be as Godly or well versed in the knowledge by any means), this is similar to pulling Apollos aside. I have done my utmost to stay in the scripture. Regardless...I will be held accountable for what I have said here...when teaching or discussing the scripture...we all must be very carefull...for we will be held accountable for anything false we might have presented.

I am very pleased to see you read the scriptures. It is something we should all do often. :)

BigGunz
06-23-2004, 05:53 AM
Im thinking also I read that he tells Timothy that he himself doest let women teach or hold higher position and goes on to explain why because Eve was the one fooled by Satanand all...I will look later but I dont recall him saying God s will per say but that he (paul). Ok see you have me even further confused when you say pastor and minister are different I understand that by definition but they had different guidlines?...To me it doesnt matter whether he told Timothy he could have a little wine when he specifically said NO DRINKING...that very specific...seems to me God wouldnt just bend the rules for one person...if he did ya think he might bend them for women also?

Girlie
06-23-2004, 07:43 AM
Paul acknowledges that women were speaking and praying in the Church at Corinth...but he did not approve it. In Fact...read closely chapter 16 verses 34 and 35...he tells women to keep silent in the churches...for they are not permitted to speak.

Mally, you have to take this whole passage into consideration, in my opinion. I don't believe we can take a couple of sentences out of the Bible and know what they mean without considering the before and after. In 1 Cor 14:34,35 Paul recognized here that women were praying and prophesying in public worship and he did not condemn them. Later, in Ch 15 starting with verse 26 he addresses them with the order of the church meetings. Since he is addressing prophesy, I believe there is a certain kind of speech here he was saying is forbidden of the women of that church. I believe, like I've said before from studies on my own and from hearing other preachers .... that there was some kind of disorderly conduct and Paul was attempting to get some order back into the services. This is just my opinion and taking the entire passage into consideration.

Girlie
06-23-2004, 08:15 AM
Girlie...please show me in the Bible...where it says that the only proof of being baptised in the Holy Spirit is the ability to speak in tongues. I can not find it. I do find where Paul teaches us that some are given the gift of prophesy, and some of tongues and others healing. But not all are given the same talents and gifts of the Spirit.

I did not say it was the only proof of being baptised in the Holy Spirit ... I said I believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues. You can be baptised in the Holy Spirit and not have the evidence of speaking in tongues. A lot of people believe that went out with the Apostles, but I don't ... I believe it is a powerful gift of the Holy Spirit interceding for us.

Miss Mally
06-23-2004, 08:54 AM
Paul acknowledges that women were speaking and praying in the Church at Corinth...but he did not approve it. In Fact...read closely chapter 16 verses 34 and 35...he tells women to keep silent in the churches...for they are not permitted to speak.

Mally, you have to take this whole passage into consideration, in my opinion. I don't believe we can take a couple of sentences out of the Bible and know what they mean without considering the before and after. In 1 Cor 14:34,35 Paul recognized here that women were praying and prophesying in public worship and he did not condemn them. Later, in Ch 15 starting with verse 26 he addresses them with the order of the church meetings. Since he is addressing prophesy, I believe there is a certain kind of speech here he was saying is forbidden of the women of that church. I believe, like I've said before from studies on my own and from hearing other preachers .... that there was some kind of disorderly conduct and Paul was attempting to get some order back into the services. This is just my opinion and taking the entire passage into consideration.

I agree with you...there was some type of disorderly conduct...and if this was the only place in the New Testament that stated that women were to keep silent...I might could see where you are coming from. But since Paul also tells Timothy to take this to all the churchs he is setting up...establishing etc. And then he tells Titus also to take that information to all the churches he will be visiting....this then becomes a broad spectrum to include all woman while in the church.

Now...when looking at church history....from the establishment of the Church forward....you do not find women in possitions of authority...as elders and preachers in the Church etc. This did not start happening in mass with mass exceptence till this last century and came with the feminist movement. It is my deep seeded believe...that many Christians have allowed the feminist movement to influence the Church. Sadly it should have been the other way around.

I see...much scrambling to explain away what is in black and white in Corinthians, Timothy and Titus. These passages are not in dispute on how a wife is to act...which is also in submission.

Miss Mally
06-23-2004, 09:03 AM
Im thinking also I read that he tells Timothy that he himself doest let women teach or hold higher position and goes on to explain why because Eve was the one fooled by Satanand all...I will look later but I dont recall him saying God s will per say but that he (paul). Ok see you have me even further confused when you say pastor and minister are different I understand that by definition but they had different guidlines?...To me it doesnt matter whether he told Timothy he could have a little wine when he specifically said NO DRINKING...that very specific...seems to me God wouldnt just bend the rules for one person...if he did ya think he might bend them for women also?

Yes Big...they have different guidelines. They are held to a higher standard. Reread Timothy....and that is explained. We are all called to teach the Good News....but you must achieve a higher standard to become an elder. Perhaps this is confusing as we try to make our standards of freedom and equality the same as Gods. Paul explains in the standards for Pastor...why the Pastor must be held to a higher standard....so that non believers and weak Christians will not find fault with them and be turned away. No where that I can find in the Bible does it say that wine or anything else you eat or drink is a bad thing....but that drunkeness is what is bad...but then so is glutony. They are equally sinful. There are somethings I don't understand why we are told it is to be a certian way Big...but we are also told in the bible we don't have to and will not understand all things...but we are still to follow by faith. Abraham didn't know why God told him to do many of the things he did....he didn't know how God was going to fullfil the promise....But he had faith and followed God anyway.

Yes...Paul does say to Timothy...that he Paul will not allow a woman to have a possition of authority....but he also says that what he teaches is doctrine. Now either we believe God inspires the writings or teachings of the bible...or we don't....I don't think God just inspired the writing of part.

Miss Mally
06-23-2004, 09:04 AM
Girlie...please show me in the Bible...where it says that the only proof of being baptised in the Holy Spirit is the ability to speak in tongues. I can not find it. I do find where Paul teaches us that some are given the gift of prophesy, and some of tongues and others healing. But not all are given the same talents and gifts of the Spirit.

I did not say it was the only proof of being baptised in the Holy Spirit ... I said I believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues. You can be baptised in the Holy Spirit and not have the evidence of speaking in tongues. A lot of people believe that went out with the Apostles, but I don't ... I believe it is a powerful gift of the Holy Spirit interceding for us.

oh okay...I misunderstood you. That happens...Sorry. :)

Girlie
06-23-2004, 09:27 AM
It's all good Mally, no problem ... I really enjoy this.

Miss Mally
06-23-2004, 09:34 AM
It's all good Mally, no problem ... I really enjoy this.

Oh I have enjoyed it too. spending time in the scripture is wonderful.

Girlie
06-23-2004, 09:37 AM
I usually only carry one Bible with me. I leave one in the truck for that purpose. Last night when I took my son to his ball practice, I carried 3 extras with me ... and two hours flew by !! lol

I read the word every day, but yesterday was especially interesting ... we'll never fully understand the great mysteries of God, but it sure is edifying to try!

Pond
06-23-2004, 10:23 AM
I have studied the history of some churches in the USA and how they came about .. It is interesting that in the early churches they had two doors going in and the church was seperated ,the women and young children sat on one side and the men on another . when the boys reached manhood, then they moved to the mens side.
I think everyone should study " why things are like they are in the USA"
We have so many different views on the Bible..

june
06-23-2004, 10:46 AM
Many times I have wanted to reply back to recent messages on this board but I am absolutely refraining for reasons...but this I must state an opinion...First as a question...why do you need to carry three Bibles to a ballgame? Second...yes the Bible teaches that women should remain silent...Also...the Bible teaches that the church should take care of widows and orphans...The church in that terminology is MEN...When men fall down upon that job, the churches fall down upon that job then what are the women to do? I have yet to find in the Bible that answer...Today's churches just seemed to want you to walk the straight and narrow and give them your tithe be you male or female...and the woman without a man gets nothing in return...On divorce, I read that divorce is fine but a second marriage is prohibited unless the church atones...Forgiveness...When forgiveness is asked it should be given unless your name is Bill Clinton...

Girlie
06-23-2004, 11:05 AM
...First as a question...why do you need to carry three Bibles to a ballgame? ...

Well, june, I did not say I carried 3 bibles to a ballgame, but I did carry 3 extras (plus the one I carry in the truck anyway) ... to my son's ball practice. I carried them for the purpose of continuing to study on the issue at hand. They are each different translations and have study sections in them that are all different ... and I wanted to read them all.

As for divorce, my Bible does not say that it is fine, it says that God hates divorce, but Moses gave a law that said if your spouse commits adultery, then you are free to give them a writ of divorce. That's a whole other subject to study, lol.

Anonymous
06-23-2004, 11:07 AM
When forgiveness is asked it should be given unless your name is Bill Clinton...

Forgiveness isn't saying "What you did is ok." It's saying, instead, "I'm not going to let this rule me any longer" And if you chose not to forgive, you chose to let the "unforgiven" rule you. Jesus said we should forgive "70 x 7" Why should bill clinton be an exception

Miss Mally
06-23-2004, 11:16 AM
Many times I have wanted to reply back to recent messages on this board but I am absolutely refraining for reasons...but this I must state an opinion...First as a question...why do you need to carry three Bibles to a ballgame? Second...yes the Bible teaches that women should remain silent...Also...the Bible teaches that the church should take care of widows and orphans...The church in that terminology is MEN...When men fall down upon that job, the churches fall down upon that job then what are the women to do? I have yet to find in the Bible that answer...Today's churches just seemed to want you to walk the straight and narrow and give them your tithe be you male or female...and the woman without a man gets nothing in return...On divorce, I read that divorce is fine but a second marriage is prohibited unless the church atones...Forgiveness...When forgiveness is asked it should be given unless your name is Bill Clinton...

Wow June...I am most impressed. You...may not like it or understand it or think it works (and that is men's fault not Gods), but you at least acknowledge the scripture and don't make excuses for it.

You are right....many churches have fallen down in many of their duties. they do not stay scripturally sound, they do not teach that people are doing wrong, or not doing their duty....as they do not want to offend anyone...someone may leave and go find another church. So all we hear from the pulpit is what tickles our ears. We are warned that this will happen in the later days.

Church has become about entertainment...what makes me feel good, what do I want, what am I going to get....and is no longer about what can I give, how can I be a servent, what is Gods will and about worshiping him as he wishes to be worshiped.

Churches should take care of the orphans....how many have visited Fosters Childrens Home lately...given money, taken by cloths, how many men have sat and just spent time with the kids. This is a local church ran facility....and the kids need us all. Now June...concerning widows....if they are young...they are to remarry...if they are older...and have children and family...the family is to take care of them. Now...if they have no family....yes...the Church is to take care of them.

June...I have forgiven Clinton. But just because someone says sorry, and people forgive them...doesn't mean that there are not still concequenses that will have to be faced. What happened and the lies and the run around "oral sex isn't sex" and "what is the definition of IS"...these things have effected and will continue to effect our country. This is not something that I know how to fix.

june
06-23-2004, 12:04 PM
And, you my dear, need to learn the difference in affect and effect!!!

Miss Mally
06-23-2004, 12:14 PM
oh I know it....but I spell it like I say it. Next time I will use an a

SosebeeArt
06-23-2004, 03:35 PM
Found an interesting site http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_bibl.htm on the subject that breaks it down this way:

The position of women within ancient Jewish and early Christian societies can logically be divided into three eras:

During Old Testament times - when the roles of women were severely restricted;

During Jesus' ministry - when he preached a revolutionary message about gender roles;

After the execution of Jesus, (circa 30 CE) - when the developing church gradually reduced the status of its women members.

The above topics are links to essays and bible studies that I have yet to read but am about to. Thought you might be interested.

BigGunz
06-23-2004, 03:46 PM
Ok Mally but it still doesnt explain why if Gods will says a pastor and I quote" He must NOT be a drinker or quarrelsome," the he turns around and teill Timothy its ok for him to have some wine because he has stomach ailments...GOD SAID a pastor must NOT be a drinker. The later in 4:6 and he is talking to Timothy "If you explain this to the others YOU will be doing your duty as a worth PASTOR who is fed by faith and by the true teaching you have followed". Timothy was a Pastor according to this read. So it was ok for him to do it?

Miss Mally
06-23-2004, 04:46 PM
okay Big...what version are you reading? Mine does not read that way...it reads minister. Pastor and minister is not the same thing. A person can be both....but...just because you are a minister does not mean you are a Pastor.

I have an American Standard, a NIV, KJ, the NKJ, The Good News Translation, and the New Living Translation....they all either read minister or servant.

whocares
06-23-2004, 04:58 PM
After carefully and repeatedly perusing the foregoing posts, I have reluctantly reached the sad conclusion that it matters not what a person says. Mally will believe as she will despite the evidence and numerous scriptures quoted to her that contradict her stand on the role of women in the church. I have seen certain scriptures ignored and others lauded to further the cause of keeping women silent and submissive.

Mally, can you explain the following to me? God created Adam and Eve. Eve gave birth to Cain, and then to Abel. Cain slew Abel, then Cain went off into the land of Nod, to the East of Eden. There he met his wife, and they had children.

Where did Cain's wife come from? When was she created?

Miss Mally
06-23-2004, 05:03 PM
Found an interesting site http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_bibl.htm on the subject that breaks it down this way:

The position of women within ancient Jewish and early Christian societies can logically be divided into three eras:

During Old Testament times - when the roles of women were severely restricted;

During Jesus' ministry - when he preached a revolutionary message about gender roles;

After the execution of Jesus, (circa 30 CE) - when the developing church gradually reduced the status of its women members.

The above topics are links to essays and bible studies that I have yet to read but am about to. Thought you might be interested.

This is a very interesting site....but...I have some concerns over it. The passages I read promote or at the very least allow the idea that the Bible is not inspired nor under the protection of God. This article takes ideas from some scholars who would like to discard some of the books of our Bible...I suppose because they don't like them.

I would be very carefull using anything as a study guide that condones the idea that the bible is not in its completeness the Word of God.

Miss Mally
06-23-2004, 05:09 PM
After carefully and repeatedly perusing the foregoing posts, I have reluctantly reached the sad conclusion that it matters not what a person says. Mally will believe as she will despite the evidence and numerous scriptures quoted to her that contradict her stand on the role of women in the church. I have seen certain scriptures ignored and others lauded to further the cause of keeping women silent and submissive.

Mally, can you explain the following to me? God created Adam and Eve. Eve gave birth to Cain, and then to Abel. Cain slew Abel, then Cain went off into the land of Nod, to the East of Eden. There he met his wife, and they had children.

Where did Cain's wife come from? When was she created?

I have no idea when she was created exactly...was she a part of men and women that God created in his image...or was she like Cain born of those creations? I am not sure because the bible doesn't tell us. There are two accountings of how God made man in Genesis. One in the first chapter and one in the second. The second chapter is specific to Adam. Are the first and both accounts of the creation of Adam? I know not. It is one of those things that there is no way to know. Good question for God some day though if you are so curious?

As to ignoring verses...please tell which I have ignored. I do not ignore Gods word. I have yet to see one verse presented in this debate that allows a woman to hold a possition of authority over a man...but have presented more than one verse that says they can not hold a possition of authority over a man. Please show me this verse that I have ignored.

No...man will not change my mind when the scriptures say one thing and man says another. I am not committed to follow mans ways...but Gods. What numerous scriptures? I have seen one....that even comes close...and that is what Art posted...and I have no problem with that...I AGREE we are all equal in Christ, being afforded the same Grace and salvation.

whocares
06-23-2004, 05:31 PM
The Bible is an historical account of the Jewish people. It is not an historical account of the Gentiles, nor of anyone other than the Jewish people, more specifically, the lineage or ancestry of Jesus Christ.

In John 10:16, Jesus speaks of "other sheep, not of this fold". Many Biblical scholars believe He was speaking specifically about Gentiles and other races of people that He wanted to bring into His fold. This tells me, and should tell you, that everything in the world that is important to God and Jesus were not historically documented in the Bible. No rational thinking person could ever adopt the premise that "if it's not in the Bible, it's evil". Lots and lots of things are not in the Bible, but are accepted by our Saviour anyway.

Slavery was and is wrong. One human being having to be submissive to another was and is wrong. Just because you can't find it in written scripture doesn't mean it's wrong. If God wanted Adam to have a "go-fer", Eve would have been a monkey.

But that's another story.

Miss Mally
06-23-2004, 05:48 PM
The Bible is an historical account of the Jewish people. It is not an historical account of the Gentiles, nor of anyone other than the Jewish people, more specifically, the lineage or ancestry of Jesus Christ.

In John 10:16, Jesus speaks of "other sheep, not of this fold". Many Biblical scholars believe He was speaking specifically about Gentiles and other races of people that He wanted to bring into His fold. This tells me, and should tell you, that everything in the world that is important to God and Jesus were not historically documented in the Bible. No rational thinking person could ever adopt the premise that "if it's not in the Bible, it's evil". Lots and lots of things are not in the Bible, but are accepted by our Saviour anyway.

Slavery was and is wrong. One human being having to be submissive to another was and is wrong. Just because you can't find it in written scripture doesn't mean it's wrong. If God wanted Adam to have a "go-fer", Eve would have been a monkey.

But that's another story.

If you don't believe the Bible is the Inspired Word of God....there is little reason to discuss the issue. You have rejected Gods word and therefore, I am not sure why you care what goes on in the Church.

We are told by Moses that God created Eve as a helpmate to Adam. The bible does tell Christians women to be submissive to their husbands....as well as giving husbands rules for how much they have to love their wives. These are rules for Christians....if you do not like the rules....you don't have to follow them. I am not here trying to force anyone to follow them....I am simply here to discuss the scripture.

A question was asked as to what the role of women in the Church should be. Since the Church is led by the Word of God...the Bible...that is what I based my posts on.

If I misunderstood you...in your reference to the Bible as simply historical...I am sorry.

I have never said that just because something wasn't in the bible it was wrong or evil. But, when the bible gives us specifics on things...such as womens roles...that we as Christians reject Christ when we refuse to follow his Word. There are things that are in the Bible...and these we should follow.

whocares
06-23-2004, 06:09 PM
You have rejected Gods word and therefore, I am not sure why you care what goes on in the Church.


Miss Mally, you have repeatedly asked everyone to show you where in the scriptures that it is ok for a woman to be vocal or a leader over men in church. You have been shown those scriptures by Art, but you reject them as irrelevant. Now, I ask you to show me where I said I reject God's word.

And may I ask you another question? Do you believe that the Old Testament and tne New Testament as translated in the King James Version is the complete Bible? Are any books missing?

BigGunz
06-23-2004, 06:56 PM
okay Big...what version are you reading? Mine does not read that way...it reads minister. Pastor and minister is not the same thing. A person can be both....but...just because you are a minister does not mean you are a Pastor.

I have an American Standard, a NIV, KJ, the NKJ, The Good News Translation, and the New Living Translation....they all either read minister or servant.

Mine is The Living Bible...my grandmother gave it to me after I graduated from High School.

Miss Mally
06-23-2004, 07:51 PM
You have rejected Gods word and therefore, I am not sure why you care what goes on in the Church.


Miss Mally, you have repeatedly asked everyone to show you where in the scriptures that it is ok for a woman to be vocal or a leader over men in church. You have been shown those scriptures by Art, but you reject them as irrelevant. Now, I ask you to show me where I said I reject God's word.

And may I ask you another question? Do you believe that the Old Testament and tne New Testament as translated in the King James Version is the complete Bible? Are any books missing?

Who...have you read the whole Chapter 3 of Galations...and continue into reading of Chapter 4?

No where in Galations does it speach to women having authority over men...it speaks to the Gentiles not having to follow the Jewish faith in order to receive salvation. The equality in this chapter is speaking of grace and salvation. I have said this before...and I do not believe that in stating what the scriptures refer to...means I have dismissed it or ignored it.

Galations 3 verse 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by Faith in Jesus Christ might be give to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.25 But after faith came, we are no longer under the tutor.27 For as many of you as were baptised into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, ther is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Chapter 4:1 Now I say that the heir, as long as his is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all. 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the Father.

I will say this again....the equality spoken of in these verses...as well as the whole chapter is about us being afforded the same grace...equal salvation...regardless of our worldly status. These verses speak in no way to the varying roles in the organization of the Church.

RogueEconomist
06-23-2004, 07:54 PM
The Living Bible is a paraphase, a nice gift but perhaps not the best choice
for bible study.


Scriptural Principles of Man and Woman Roles

In order to express our harmony in doctrine and practice with what God teaches in the Holy Scriptures about man and woman, I present the following statements



Creation

God created man and woman in His own image. The divine image gave man and woman spiritual equality in their relationship to the Creator (Ge 1:26,27; Col 3:10; Gal 3:28).

In love God established distinct male and female responsibilities (Ge 2:7,18,22) for the man and woman to whom He had given spiritual equality. These responsibilities involved headship for man and submission for woman. These roles demonstrated God's unchanging will for the complementary relationship of man and woman with each other. Two New Testament passages attest to this: 1 Co 11:3,8,9 and 1 Ti 2:12,13.

God established roles for man and woman in His creative plan before He united them in marriage and before they fell into sin (Ge 2:7,18,22; 1 Co 11:3,8,9). Therefore God's assigned roles apply beyond the marriage relationship and in every period of history.
The Fall


All commands of God and all roles established by God are for our good (1 Jn 5:3; Ps 19:8,11). To ignore or reject them harms our relationship with God and with each other (1 Pe 3:7; Eph 6:3; Ro 13:2-4).

When they sinned, man and woman lost the image of God and their perfect relationship with their Creator (Ge 5:1-3; Isa 59:2). Man and woman also lost their holy and harmonious relationship with each other (Ge 2:16,17; 3:12,16).
Restoration


God loved all men and women so much that He sent and sacrificed His Son to reestablish the holy relationship they once had with Him—Justification (Ro 5:8; 2 Co 5:18,19,21; Eph 4:24; Col 3:10).

Men and women enjoy equal status in their reestablished relationship with God when He brings them to faith in Jesus (Gal 3:26-29; Eph 6:9).

The restoration of God's image in us is a gradual process which goes on throughout our earthly lives—Sanctification (2 Co 3:18; Eph 4:12-16). The Holy Spirit accomplishes this restoration by the power of the Gospel (Jn 17:17; 1 Th 3:13).
Headship


As God restores His image in us, we grow in our ability to live in our God-assigned roles for Jesus' sake (Eph 5:21–6:9; Col 3:18–4:1; 1 Pe 3:5-7).

Scripture teaches that headship includes authority (1 Co 11:3,10; Col 1:18; 2:10; Eph 1:22; 1 Ti 2:11,12). Authority should not be used to dominate but to serve others (Mt 20:25-28).

Christ exercised His headship with sacrificial love (Eph 5:25), humility (Php 2:5-8), and service (Eph 5:28,29), and asks all believers to carry out their roles of authority in the same way (Mt 20:25-28).

In applying the principle of role relationship, the church will emphasize the duties and responsibilities of men. God holds Christian men accountable for the use of the authority He has given them and will grant His blessings when men exercise this authority out of love for Christ (1 Pe 3:7; Col 3:19).

Believers in Christ live under His headship with willing submission, respect, obedience, and love toward those in authority (Eph 5:21–6:9).
In the Home


The role relationships of man and woman find their fullest expression in the close union of marriage. In a Christian home a husband and wife are partners and co-heirs of God's gracious gift of salvation (Eph 5:22-33; 1 Pe 3:1-7).

Since God appointed the husband to be the head of the wife (Eph 5:23), the husband will love and care for his God-given wife (1 Pe 3:7). A wife will gladly accept the leadership of her husband as her God-appointed head (Eph 5:22-24).

As the head of the wife and family the husband has the prime responsibility for the spiritual instruction of the family (Eph 6:4).
In the Church


The biblical principle of role relationship applies also to the gatherings of the church. All believers, men and women, will participate at gatherings of worship, prayer, Bible study, and service. The scriptural applications that a woman remain silent (1 Co 14:34) and that a woman should not teach a man (1 Ti 2:11,12) require that a woman refrain from participating in these gatherings in any way which involves authority over men.

In church assemblies the headship principle means that only men will cast votes when such votes exercise authority over men. Only men will do work that involves authority over men (1 Co 11:3-10; 14:33-35; 1 Ti 2:11,12).

All Christians, men and women, are to use their God-given gifts to serve each other (1 Pe 4:10). Women are encouraged to participate in offices and activities of the public ministry except where the work involves authority over men.
In the World


Christians also accept the biblical role relationship principle for their life and work in the world (1 Co 11:3; Eph 5:6-17). Christians seek to do God's will consistently in every area of their lives. We will therefore strive to apply this role relationship principle to our life and work in the world.

Scripture leaves a great deal to our conscientious Christian judgment as we live the role relationship principle in the world. In Christian love we will refrain from unduly binding the consciences of the brothers and sisters in our fellowship. Rather, we will encourage each other as we seek to apply this principle to our lives in the world.

Because the unregenerate world is not motivated by the Gospel or guided by God's will (1 Co 2:14), we as Christians will not try to force God's will upon the world (1 Co 5:12). We will seek to influence and change the world by our Gospel witness in word and deed (Mk 16:15; Mt 5:16).

Miss Mally
06-23-2004, 07:57 PM
Who...I believe the Bible is Gods word...and that He has protected it and ensured that his Word and not other peoples words have survived for over two thousand years...intact and complete and that we as man should neither add to it or take away from it.

Miss Mally
06-23-2004, 08:01 PM
The Living Bible is a paraphase, a nice gift but perhaps not the best choice
for bible study.


Scriptural Principles of Man and Woman Roles

In order to express our harmony in doctrine and practice with what God teaches in the Holy Scriptures about man and woman, I present the following statements



Creation

God created man and woman in His own image. The divine image gave man and woman spiritual equality in their relationship to the Creator (Ge 1:26,27; Col 3:10; Gal 3:28).

In love God established distinct male and female responsibilities (Ge 2:7,18,22) for the man and woman to whom He had given spiritual equality. These responsibilities involved headship for man and submission for woman. These roles demonstrated God's unchanging will for the complementary relationship of man and woman with each other. Two New Testament passages attest to this: 1 Co 11:3,8,9 and 1 Ti 2:12,13.

God established roles for man and woman in His creative plan before He united them in marriage and before they fell into sin (Ge 2:7,18,22; 1 Co 11:3,8,9). Therefore God's assigned roles apply beyond the marriage relationship and in every period of history.
The Fall


All commands of God and all roles established by God are for our good (1 Jn 5:3; Ps 19:8,11). To ignore or reject them harms our relationship with God and with each other (1 Pe 3:7; Eph 6:3; Ro 13:2-4).

When they sinned, man and woman lost the image of God and their perfect relationship with their Creator (Ge 5:1-3; Isa 59:2). Man and woman also lost their holy and harmonious relationship with each other (Ge 2:16,17; 3:12,16).
Restoration


God loved all men and women so much that He sent and sacrificed His Son to reestablish the holy relationship they once had with Him—Justification (Ro 5:8; 2 Co 5:18,19,21; Eph 4:24; Col 3:10).

Men and women enjoy equal status in their reestablished relationship with God when He brings them to faith in Jesus (Gal 3:26-29; Eph 6:9).

The restoration of God's image in us is a gradual process which goes on throughout our earthly lives—Sanctification (2 Co 3:18; Eph 4:12-16). The Holy Spirit accomplishes this restoration by the power of the Gospel (Jn 17:17; 1 Th 3:13).
Headship


As God restores His image in us, we grow in our ability to live in our God-assigned roles for Jesus' sake (Eph 5:21–6:9; Col 3:18–4:1; 1 Pe 3:5-7).

Scripture teaches that headship includes authority (1 Co 11:3,10; Col 1:18; 2:10; Eph 1:22; 1 Ti 2:11,12). Authority should not be used to dominate but to serve others (Mt 20:25-28).

Christ exercised His headship with sacrificial love (Eph 5:25), humility (Php 2:5-8), and service (Eph 5:28,29), and asks all believers to carry out their roles of authority in the same way (Mt 20:25-28).

In applying the principle of role relationship, the church will emphasize the duties and responsibilities of men. God holds Christian men accountable for the use of the authority He has given them and will grant His blessings when men exercise this authority out of love for Christ (1 Pe 3:7; Col 3:19).

Believers in Christ live under His headship with willing submission, respect, obedience, and love toward those in authority (Eph 5:21–6:9).
In the Home


The role relationships of man and woman find their fullest expression in the close union of marriage. In a Christian home a husband and wife are partners and co-heirs of God's gracious gift of salvation (Eph 5:22-33; 1 Pe 3:1-7).

Since God appointed the husband to be the head of the wife (Eph 5:23), the husband will love and care for his God-given wife (1 Pe 3:7). A wife will gladly accept the leadership of her husband as her God-appointed head (Eph 5:22-24).

As the head of the wife and family the husband has the prime responsibility for the spiritual instruction of the family (Eph 6:4).
In the Church


The biblical principle of role relationship applies also to the gatherings of the church. All believers, men and women, will participate at gatherings of worship, prayer, Bible study, and service. The scriptural applications that a woman remain silent (1 Co 14:34) and that a woman should not teach a man (1 Ti 2:11,12) require that a woman refrain from participating in these gatherings in any way which involves authority over men.

In church assemblies the headship principle means that only men will cast votes when such votes exercise authority over men. Only men will do work that involves authority over men (1 Co 11:3-10; 14:33-35; 1 Ti 2:11,12).

All Christians, men and women, are to use their God-given gifts to serve each other (1 Pe 4:10). Women are encouraged to participate in offices and activities of the public ministry except where the work involves authority over men.
In the World


Christians also accept the biblical role relationship principle for their life and work in the world (1 Co 11:3; Eph 5:6-17). Christians seek to do God's will consistently in every area of their lives. We will therefore strive to apply this role relationship principle to our life and work in the world.

Scripture leaves a great deal to our conscientious Christian judgment as we live the role relationship principle in the world. In Christian love we will refrain from unduly binding the consciences of the brothers and sisters in our fellowship. Rather, we will encourage each other as we seek to apply this principle to our lives in the world.

Because the unregenerate world is not motivated by the Gospel or guided by God's will (1 Co 2:14), we as Christians will not try to force God's will upon the world (1 Co 5:12). We will seek to influence and change the world by our Gospel witness in word and deed (Mk 16:15; Mt 5:16).

Wow...Rogue...I would say you about covered it all. Good Job.

Miss Mally
06-23-2004, 08:10 PM
A HISTORY OF THE LIVING BIBLE

In the summer of 1957, a 39 year old man by the name of Kenneth Taylor claimed that "God planted in my mind the concept" of taking the Bible and rephrasing it in an innovative "thought-for-thought" form, rather than a word-for-word translation from the original Hebrew and Greek.

In the upstairs study of his old farmhouse in Wheaton, Illinois he began trying out his theory on a few passages of Scripture. The results of his rephrasing work he would then read to his children during their family devotionals. The family liked it so well that he determined to spend more time in an effort to rephrase even more of the New Testament writings. In the months that followed, Kenneth Taylor worked nights, weekends, vacations and even during the 45 minute daily commuter train ride from Wheaton to downtown Chicago (where he worked at Moody Press) in order to produce a thought-for-thought paraphrase of the NT.

His devotionals with his family (he was the father of ten children) continued to "come to life" as he used the passages he had translated. Soon he began to realize that perhaps other families could benefit from his work as well. He took his paraphrase of Paul's epistles, which he called "Living Letters," to several publishers, but was turned down by all of them. The Taylors finally dipped into their own savings and published 2000 copies of the "Living Letters."

He rented half a booth at a Christian bookseller's convention in 1962, and managed to sell 800 copies. Four months passed without a single comment from anyone, then orders began to trickle in 3 or 4 at a time. He soon realized that he was going to have to print more copies, so stepping out on faith he dipped into savings again and printed 5000 more copies. Within a few months these had all sold, and he printed 10,000 more.

About this time Billy Graham, who had read the "Living Letters" while recuperating in a hospital in Hawaii, decided to use Taylor's work as one of his "give-aways" on some of his telecasts. Billy Graham gave away nearly 500,000 copies in this fashion, and the demand for more began in earnest.

Kenneth Taylor continued to work on rephrasing the rest of the Scriptures, and produced his efforts piece by piece. The Living Prophecies came out in 1964, The Living Gospels in 1966, The Living New Testament in 1967, The Living Psalms and Proverbs in 1967, Living Lessons of Life and Love in 1968, The Living Books of Moses in 1969, and The Living History of Israel in 1970. The completed Bible was finally issued in one volume in July, 1971 and was entitled The Living Bible: Paraphrased.

His work has appeared in a great many different forms: The Reach Out Version NT (1969), The Way (1972), Soul Food (a version for Afro-Americans), and various other forms. In 1972 the Living Bible became the best selling book in the USA. In 1973 alone Taylor's royalties totaled $8 million!! By 1974 the LB accounted for 46% of the sales of Bibles in the USA, bringing in almost $29 million!!

Kenneth Taylor, admitting that he had little or no knowledge of the Hebrew or Greek, made his paraphrase from the American Standard Version of 1901. It should not be forgotten that this work is a paraphrase of the Bible, and NOT a translation of it! As such it is little more than a short commentary on the Scriptures --- i.e.: what Kenneth Taylor thinks the Bible says; his interpretation

http://www.zianet.com/maxey/Ver4.htm

Mr. Taylor himself acknowledges this is his interpretation...and not the accual Word of God. It is useful as a commentary...much as is the Ungers Bible Handbook...which I keep handy for quick references...and definitions.

Hopefully this helps you out Big. Reading the Living Bible is much like reading all our opinions on this forum....and is not the same as reading scripture.

fishhook
06-23-2004, 08:22 PM
Wow, miss a few days of reading and you miss alot. Just caught up on this and wish I had seen it from the start.

In case anyone needs it, here is a good link for an online bible:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/index.html

BigGunz
06-23-2004, 08:22 PM
I kinda figured that sooner or later that would be an issue...and when i go to church I see some of the same bibles in the hands of some...I guess for over 26 yrs I have been nothing but a heathen and everythinbg I belived in was false and this guy did me wrong with his interpretation. I will go to hell now I assume!

Miss Mally
06-23-2004, 09:20 PM
I kinda figured that sooner or later that would be an issue...and when i go to church I see some of the same bibles in the hands of some...I guess for over 26 yrs I have been nothing but a heathen and everythinbg I belived in was false and this guy did me wrong with his interpretation. I will go to hell now I assume!

I don't think anyone said that....just explained to you that it was an interpretation vs. a dirrect translation from the Greek and Hebrew. You may prefer studing what someone else thought about the Bible....and that is your choice. But...I prefer the accually scriptures...so that I know what God said...not what someone else thought he said.

BigGunz
06-23-2004, 09:31 PM
well th eonly thing I saw different in what you posted and what i read was the word Pastor vs minister...I guees that one single word nullifies what i have as actual scripture.....lol

Miss Mally
06-23-2004, 10:13 PM
well th eonly thing I saw different in what you posted and what i read was the word Pastor vs minister...I guees that one single word nullifies what i have as actual scripture.....lol

I have never used the Living Bible...so...I couldn't say. I do know that one word...seemed to cause you confusion...and made things seem as though they contradicted themselves. This is a problem....it only takes one word...in a statement to make the statement false.

My feeling on it is....Taylor viewed Pastor...much as many today seemed to have taken the view....that pastor is anyone that preaches. I am just curious...when talking of the qualifications...did Taylor use the word Pastor, Bishop or Elder?

souldancefree
06-23-2004, 10:17 PM
so if theres a woman that is SPIRITUALLY ON FIRE for God, ya'll are pretty much saying that shes a liar if she feels that God tells her to go speak to or teach this man possibly a friend that has never been to church in his life and really needs something from God at that very moment.

There are women that love God and have a ten times better relationship with him than many men. But oh no! she cant go help him out casue then shes going to hell. the spiritually stronger with a calling needs to have the authority.

Anonymous
06-23-2004, 10:24 PM
I notice how all the new versions leave out (without a cause) in Matthew 5:22. Jesus was angry, he had cause, in the new versions does this mean he shall be in danger of hell fire?

My bible says God created male and female on the 6th day.
God rested on the 7th day.
Then he formed man (Adam & Eve) this would be what day?

There were other people outside of the garden, that's why when God drove Cain out he said "that everyone that findeth me shall slay me"

Does anyone know why Cain is not in Adam's linage? I figure Able's not since he died, but usually the 1st born is in the lineage, right?

Miss Mally
06-23-2004, 10:33 PM
so if theres a woman that is SPIRITUALLY ON FIRE for God, ya'll are pretty much saying that shes a liar if she feels that God tells her to go speak to or teach this man possibly a friend that has never been to church in his life and really needs something from God at that very moment.

There are women that love God and have a ten times better relationship with him than many men. But oh no! she cant go help him out casue then shes going to hell. the spiritually stronger with a calling needs to have the authority.

No...I don't think that she is wrong to go teach this man. That is not what I have been saying at all...at any time. We have example of Pricilla doing this very thing with Apollos. I am speaking on this forum. What I have said...is that the Bible tells us...that women should not have authority over a man in the Church. The example we are given of Pricilla is right in line with this...as they were in the synogog...and she took Apollos aside (meaning she did not correct him or teach him in front of everyone in the temple).

First of all....if someone has never heard of Christ....they are not in the Church...they are not a part of the body of Christ. Second...we are all called to teach. There is a difference in a woman teaching a man that has never heard the word....and standing from a Pulpit leading the congregation...or a woman being an elder, pastor or bishop.

BigGunz
06-23-2004, 10:44 PM
so if theres a woman that is SPIRITUALLY ON FIRE for God, ya'll are pretty much saying that shes a liar if she feels that God tells her to go speak to or teach this man possibly a friend that has never been to church in his life and really needs something from God at that very moment.

There are women that love God and have a ten times better relationship with him than many men. But oh no! she cant go help him out casue then shes going to hell. the spiritually stronger with a calling needs to have the authority.

Thats the only choice there is SDF...since from what I have read here that the word of God says she cannot do it. Doesnt matter how much in her heart she proclaims that God has spoken to her and she has been called upon to stand behind the pulpit to teach unto all mankind the word of God and all his wonder and glory she has got to be lieing about it since god say she cant do it and will never call upon a woman to stand behind a pulpit! And I am ssuming that God never changes his mind about anything so its impossible to belive that throughout the ages maybe he decided to speak unto women to be behind a pulpit also. I think it is easy to say that the woman who proclaims this is mistaken about what God called upon her to do...but reality of it is if God spoke to you man or woman about serving him behind a pulpit there would be mo mistaking that!..So therfore the only alternative is she is a bold face liar and serving her own purpose.

Miss Mally
06-23-2004, 10:46 PM
I notice how all the new versions leave out (without a cause) in Matthew 5:22. Jesus was angry, he had cause, in the new versions does this mean he shall be in danger of hell fire?

My bible says God created male and female on the 6th day.
God rested on the 7th day.
Then he formed man (Adam & Eve) this would be what day?

There were other people outside of the garden, that's why when God drove Cain out he said "that everyone that findeth me shall slay me"

Does anyone know why Cain is not in Adam's linage? I figure Able's not since he died, but usually the 1st born is in the lineage, right?

Cain was cast out by God...because he murdered his brother. After this...Adam and Eve had Seth...and the lineage to Noah came down from Seth. As an outcast...Cain no longer had the privledges of First Born. This seems to happen often with those that God chooses. As in Jacob and Esua...God chose the second born son....Ishmael and Isaac....Josheph and all his brothers...David was the least of his brothers...the youngest.

Miss Mally
06-23-2004, 10:48 PM
so if theres a woman that is SPIRITUALLY ON FIRE for God, ya'll are pretty much saying that shes a liar if she feels that God tells her to go speak to or teach this man possibly a friend that has never been to church in his life and really needs something from God at that very moment.

There are women that love God and have a ten times better relationship with him than many men. But oh no! she cant go help him out casue then shes going to hell. the spiritually stronger with a calling needs to have the authority.

Thats the only choice there is SDF...since from what I have read here that the word of God says she cannot do it. Doesnt matter how much in her heart she proclaims that God has spoken to her and she has been called upon to stand behind the pulpit to teach unto all mankind the word of God and all his wonder and glory she has got to be lieing about it since god say she cant do it and will never call upon a woman to stand behind a pulpit! And I am ssuming that God never changes his mind about anything so its impossible to belive that throughout the ages maybe he decided to speak unto women to be behind a pulpit also. I think it is easy to say that the woman who proclaims this is mistaken about what God called upon her to do...but reality of it is if God spoke to you man or woman about serving him behind a pulpit there would be mo mistaking that!..So therfore the only alternative is she is a bold face liar and serving her own purpose.

As the bible tells us there will be false teachers...and to test all against the scripture....it is my understanding that those teacher may be male or female. There have been and will be men who stand in the pulpit...who are either not called by God...or who were called by God and have lost their way. That is why were are told to test all against the scriptures....so not to be led astray ourselves.

Miss Mally
06-23-2004, 10:53 PM
No Big...God doesn't change his mind...the Bible tells us this as well. He is as he has always been as he will alway be. Just because man changes how we view things here on earth...doesn't mean God changes. lol Man in America decided to give Woman the Vote....that doesn't mean God did. hahahahhahahaha Look what the women did with the vote. God is very very smart.

BigGunz
06-23-2004, 10:53 PM
well according to whats been posted and siad in scripture fact is there really is no testing when it comes to a woman behind the pulpit as that is strictly against gods will...and is forbidden thus rendering that a no brainer that the woman is nothing shy of a liar! I guess the lord works in myeterious ways when we want him to and not when he wants to!

Miss Mally
06-23-2004, 11:00 PM
well according to whats been posted and siad in scripture fact is there really is no testing when it comes to a woman behind the pulpit as that is strictly against gods will...and is forbidden thus rendering that a no brainer that the woman is nothing shy of a liar! I guess the lord works in myeterious ways when we want him to and not when he wants to!

The testing of the scripture...mean...if what you are teaching or doing is contrary to the scripture...you shouldn't be teaching or doing it. How do we know women should not be elders? Because if you put it to the test of the scripture....the Scripture shows us that it is false. Not just one time does the scripture say women be silent in the Church....but in three different books of the bible that were directed to multiple Churches.

people no longer want to test the scripture...because they want it their way....they don't want to devote themselves totally to God's way...as they just can not seemed to see how God would possibly not want to do it that way. In human minds...our way is better...How can God not see that? it is not just in this one thing Big that many deviate from the scripture...the reason we have so many denominations...is because men wanted things to happen and be designed and named as it pleases men.

souldancefree
06-23-2004, 11:00 PM
yeah well i can not even begin to imagain that i could be ready and willing to perhaps take over a church that i KNOW God has told me to take over but Him saying oh no! you are a woman and even though you love me with all your heart adn have witnessed to many ppl and are very spiritually strong even more than many men ion the church you cant do it. NOpe cant even fathom it. i cant imagaine God not letting anyone who is ready and willing and called. there are too many amzing awesomly powerful God fearing women out there that speak from the pulpit or lead the praise team ect.

Miss Mally
06-23-2004, 11:04 PM
yeah well i can not even begin to imagain that i could be ready and willing to perhaps take over a church that i KNOW God has told me to take over but Him saying oh no! you are a woman and even though you love me with all your heart adn have witnessed to many ppl and are very spiritually strong even more than many men ion the church you cant do it. NOpe cant even fathom it. i cant imagaine God not letting anyone who is ready and willing and called. there are too many amzing awesomly powerful God fear women out there that speak from the pulpit or lead the praise team ect.

Nope, I can not imagine it. God has his reasons...and no matter what we think is best and right....God's way is the way. Soul...can you honestly say that the scripture does not tell Women to be silent in Church? Have you read Timothy? Have you read those verses? Are you telling me...that you feel Man is better at determining the right way? Or do you just choose to believe that God didn't mean it when He inspired Paul to write those words...not once...not twice...but Three times?

You seem to make your plea on an emotional level...on what you feel is right. I am asking you to look at Gods word....and give up your feelings to be abosorbed by the word.

souldancefree
06-23-2004, 11:26 PM
there are too many other scriptures to consider that are directed to all. It's his calling, it a new day not Paul's, he works in mysterious way, he can do anything he wants and if its thrrough a woman than so be it. "every thing is possible for him who believes," "i have plans to poserper you and not to harm you, to give you a hope and a future, I am the vine u are the branches he who abides in me and i in him bears much fruit for without me you can do nothing, Whatever you do, do it heartily as to the Lord and not to men, we know that all things work together for good to those who love God who are called according to his purpose. Those give everyone hope to do what ever God calls them to do, and in these days i believe god can and will can anyone who is ready and willing. ive seen too man amazing women in the pulpit to believe he cant or wont work though them, i know many of them have touched my life and made me think about stuff more. It wasnt casue they we "tickeling my ears" im not even a feminist. i know men are stronger than women and that women are under men in many cases. I do believe the bible is inspirered by God but there is too much stuff in it that has hit me hard or inspired me to speak out for him. I KNOW that oneday i will be giving devotions often in his house wether it be to just women or to men and wemon it doesnt matter to me HE will lead me and if it is just to women so be it i was wrong. to many awsome amazing things have happened to me in the last few years that i couldnt do without God and i KNOW a little of where it is leading me. He hasnt revealed it all to me but i prey for understanding ALL THE TIME. Yes i read his word, I know what it says, and i know HE's going to use me in gynormous ways.

Gearldean
06-23-2004, 11:27 PM
Anyone besides me beginning to see why women are not to speak in church? The men are scared to death she'd never shut up and the service would go on and on and on and on and on and on and on, & nobody would feed em! :D

souldancefree
06-23-2004, 11:29 PM
hehehe LOL bring in the humour! thanx geraldean :D

Miss Mally
06-23-2004, 11:33 PM
there are too many other scriptures to consider that are directed to all. It's his calling, it a new day not Paul's, he works in mysterious way, he can do anything he wants and if its thrrough a woman than so be it. "every thing is possible for him who believes," "i have plans to poserper you and not to harm you, to give you a hope and a future, I am the vine u are the branches he who abides in me and i in him bears much fruit for without me you can do nothing, Whatever you do, do it heartily as to the Lord and not to men, we know that all things work together for good to those who love God who are called according to his purpose. Those give everyone hope to do what ever God calls them to do, and in these days i believe god can and will can anyone who is ready and willing. ive seen too man amazing women in the pulpit to believe he cant or wont work though them, i know many of them have touched my life and made me think about stuff more. It wasnt casue they we "tickeling my ears" im not even a feminist. i know men are stronger than women and that women are under men in many cases. I do believe the bible is inspirered by God but there is too much stuff in it that has hit me hard or inspired me to speak out for him. I KNOW that oneday i will be giving devotions often in his house wether it be to just women or to men and wemon it doesnt matter to me HE will lead me and if it is just to women so be it i was wrong. to many awsome amazing things have happened to me in the last few years that i couldnt do without God and i KNOW a little of where it is leading me. He hasnt revealed it all to me but i prey for understanding ALL THE TIME. Yes i read his word, I know what it says, and i know HE's going to use me in gynormous ways.

In other words...you do not know how to mesh all of Gods Word...how to make it all work together....and so you choose to ignor some of the verses. You decide they are Paul's words and not the Word of God. You tell me of what YOU know and FEEl and have Been taught from the Pulpit are more than the Bible?

Yes we can do all things...and yes the Bible tells we can do all things...and it also goes on to tells us that all things are not profitable...that all things are not good for us.

I understand your need to serve...to do the Lords work...I also understand that want to. What I do not understand...is deciding part of the Word is irrelevant when it goes against what you need and want to do.

For me...if there is even a suspicion...if it is one of those things that is a mystery...or I am not yet capible of understanding it....I don't take a chance on it...I do not test the Lord.

Miss Mally
06-23-2004, 11:34 PM
Anyone besides me beginning to see why women are not to speak in church? The men are scared to death she'd never shut up and the service would go on and on and on and on and on and on and on, & nobody would feed em! :D

You are probably right Gd. God looks after His children...and He don't want no one to starve.

jenfrog81
06-23-2004, 11:35 PM
JESUS IS MY HOMEBOY > 8)

Miss Mally
06-23-2004, 11:42 PM
Anyone besides me beginning to see why women are not to speak in church? The men are scared to death she'd never shut up and the service would go on and on and on and on and on and on and on, & nobody would feed em! :D

Accually Gd...this is another area that kinda disturbs me. When the Church was first established....the congregation worshiped all day...they ate their meals together...and sometimes sermons by Paul went late into the night.

We have now regulated Church down to two hours on Sunday morning and one on Sunday night (this is approximate and I realise some Churches may go three or so...but none to my knowledged still go from early morning till after dark). We fit God into our schedual now. We can't sit still long enough to listen to a three hour sermon or an hour sermon by one man and and hour sermon by another. We might get Bored!!! How sad...that the Word of God should ever bore us. We might fall asleep...but hey...it wouldn't be the first time...Paul put a young man so soundly to sleep...that the man fell out a thee story window to his death...and Paul then had to heal him. I am just betting...he didn't ever fall asleep during a sermon again.

We no longer spend the day in fellowship because that is simply not where we want to be.

souldancefree
06-23-2004, 11:47 PM
For me...if there is even a suspicion...if it is one of those things that is a mystery...or I am not yet capible of understanding it....I don't take a chance on it...I do not test the Lord.

im going out on a limb here and i could be wrong but you dont understand speaking in tounges. youve never experienced it. you dont fully understand it casue youve never been tought that way. Yet its there in "black and white" for all you know you could have this amazing gift or maybe one of prophesy but who knows. guess its same for me never been tought that women cant be amazing speakers from the pulpit and have an amazing gift from god to do so even though its in "black and white"

Gearldean
06-23-2004, 11:57 PM
hehehe LOL bring in the humour! thanx geraldean :D
Well, it was a matter of life and death! It was also a matter of losin my religion! I was about to decide to take up the study of Wicca! :D

Gearldean
06-24-2004, 12:04 AM
Accually Gd...this is another area that kinda disturbs me....
Well, shut my mouth! I shoulda known better! Do we have to get off on that tangent right now? Do ya think ya might give us a few days to recuperate?

Miss Mally
06-24-2004, 12:16 AM
For me...if there is even a suspicion...if it is one of those things that is a mystery...or I am not yet capible of understanding it....I don't take a chance on it...I do not test the Lord.

im going out on a limb here and i could be wrong but you dont understand speaking in tounges. youve never experienced it. you dont fully understand it casue youve never been tought that way. Yet its there in "black and white" for all you know you could have this amazing gift or maybe one of prophesy but who knows. guess its same for me never been tought that women cant be amazing speakers from the pulpit and have an amazing gift from god to do so even though its in "black and white"

I do understand what speaking in tongues is. I am not sure why you think I was never taught about it. I have read and studied about it in the Bible.

You were raised seeing women preach from the pulpit...and so it is something you are comfortable with. I am not sure what you have been taught...or how the scriptures in Timothy were presented to you...if they had been?

I certainly was never taught that Worship services should go on all day long. But...I do believe...that Christ established his Church...and he hand picked 12 men to guide the beginings of that Church...to establish the order, to ensure that the Church that Christ built with his blood was as he wished it to be. We are given these Churches as examples of what to do and not do. I believe that all of us should strive to get back to the basics...be Scripturally correct...that our doctrines be the same as what the apostles spoke and wrote about. Christ gave his life for the Church...why would we want to do anything different than that which was done from the beginning? In that belief...how can I not feel that we should be in Worship more than just three hours total on Sunday?

I am going to give you an old testament example...think about the ark of the covenent...and how it was to be transported. There were very strict rules about this. One time...there was a deviation from those rules. And a man walking along side...who had no part in the decision on how the ark was to be transported...happened to notice that the ark was going to fall....this is where God resided...how could he let it fall? God would not want it damaged! So he reached his hand up to save it....and God struck him dead. This man was called upon to protect the Ark...as all Jews were called to do. But God expected them to answer that calling within the confines of the rules he had set up.

I am not saying God is going to strike someone dead in the pulpit...but...they will be judged by him as to whether they did it in a mannor that followed His Will and His Word. James tells us that those who teach will receive a stricker judgement...to becareful and not stumble in teaching.

BigGunz
06-24-2004, 05:18 AM
we just got to remember to get the right bible...the words pastor and minister are two entirely different things! One is the word of God and the other is someone telling me lies!....lol

kay
06-24-2004, 07:34 AM
I haven't seen anything on here about raising of hands in church. What is your feelings on this? It is in the old and new testament and I don't see this practiced in very many churchs. My husband who was raised COC, went to church one Sunday with me and my pastor spoke on this. He was shocked that he had never heard those scriptures taught or ever paid attention to them.

Girlie
06-24-2004, 08:25 AM
2 Cor 3:17

Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.


I choose to raise my hands in church ... to me, this is a sign of being humble, being submissive, reverence, surrender, worhipping .... and PRAISE! As with the scripture I quoted, I believe that there is freedom where the Spirit of the Lord is. You can praise and worship however YOUR spirit is led to do so ... with music, without, with dance, without, with song, without, with tongues, without .... it's personal, between you and God.

I have seen lives changed when people will just let go and let God .... who cares what your neighbor in church thinks. We think nothing of standing up at a football game and screaming for our team, but when it comes to Jesus, people generally sit like bumps on a log .... Jesus gave us something to SHOUT about !! lol

Sorry, I just get really excited about this man Jesus! ........

krispy
06-24-2004, 08:39 AM
I really think this is something we should not try to "figure out" for ourselves.....as with many things....God will have his way. If he wants a woman to bring his word, she will.....

Something I also think we should all consider, The bible is also a History book, the scriptures about women being silent in church, are in accordance with the times in which they were written, when women were to be silent everywhere outside the home.

Lots of things have changed since then.....and God wouldn't have let things change if he didn't want them too. He has his reasons, and he is so amazing and more than us that we will never know exactly his reasons until we die and can ask him for ourselves.

Miss Mally
06-24-2004, 08:54 AM
we just got to remember to get the right bible...the words pastor and minister are two entirely different things! One is the word of God and the other is someone telling me lies!....lol

One doesn't even claim to Be the Word of God. Taylor the man who wrote the one...told people he paraphrased...that it was his interp. I understand Big that this book is important to you because your Grandmother gave it to you for Graduation....I got my Bible Handbook at the same time.

Miss Mally
06-24-2004, 09:01 AM
I really think this is something we should not try to "figure out" for ourselves.....as with many things....God will have his way. If he wants a woman to bring his word, she will.....

Something I also think we should all consider, The bible is also a History book, the scriptures about women being silent in church, are in accordance with the times in which they were written, when women were to be silent everywhere outside the home.

Lots of things have changed since then.....and God wouldn't have let things change if he didn't want them too. He has his reasons, and he is so amazing and more than us that we will never know exactly his reasons until we die and can ask him for ourselves.

You are right Krispy...things have changed....and the Bible tells us this will happen too. God tells us in the last days...that there will be false teachers, that there will be those who believe another doctrine and that God will harden their hearts because of this and they will not see the truth.

Girlie...I do believe we should all be excited for the Lord too. I also believe that there are many things we can do with Freedom. We are free to do all things...but not all things are profitable. We are also given Gods will as to the order of the worship. Obviously, as you pointed out...the worship in Corinth was disorganized with more than one person talking at once, or speaking in tongues at once. This was not proper and explains how it is to be done. Speaking in tongues should not occur out loud if there is no one to interpret.

souldancefree
06-24-2004, 09:25 AM
My mind is too young for this. I want to keep my faith strong and this is killing me! Therefore, im not posting or reading this anymore.

I hate RELIGION and I hate man for screwing it all up into DENOMINATIONS. I hate those two words more than anything. Im just going to follow God’s plan for my life and go through the doors he opens for me no matter where they take me. Where I end up is where I end up. That may sound contradicting but religion and anything to do with my God are totally different to me. If one gets caught up in religion they will soon dry up and never be able to actually feel anything from God. Anyways, I just really cant imagine god sending a woman who has brought ppl to the Lord from the pulpit to hell.

Mally, if you had the power of tongues in you, you’d be one awesome lady. (although you could already, but what do I know) Why take any chances right? It strengthens you more than anything else I can think of.

Ive also decided im addicted to the computer so im not going to be on so much because its taking away my time from God. And the passing of my friend has made me realize more than ever that we don’t have long on this earth and we are not promised another day so we better prepare ourselves every chance we get and try our best to stay strong in HIM.
*sorry if I just went overboard, that was just all that was on my mind*

I think raising hands in church is beautiful and profitable.

Miss Mally
06-24-2004, 09:25 AM
I haven't seen anything on here about raising of hands in church. What is your feelings on this? It is in the old and new testament and I don't see this practiced in very many churchs. My husband who was raised COC, went to church one Sunday with me and my pastor spoke on this. He was shocked that he had never heard those scriptures taught or ever paid attention to them.

The scripture says raise holy hands in prayer everywhere. This should be done as the scripture says.

Timothy 2:8 I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

In our home, and often...not always (sometimes we have children in our laps and sometimes we fold them togeter) within the Congregation, we lift our hands and take each others hands lifted. Understand here...when I say we...I am meaning my immediate family. I have seen others in the Church do this as well...and have seen others bow there heads only or clasp their hands together.

Also Kay...you have to understand, not every Church of Christ does everything the same. It is not like the Catholic or Baptist where there is a big committee that determines what ever congregation is going to do each Sunday or what they will hear from the pulpit. Each congregation is guided by the Elders of that congregation.

We moved alot, so I have been to Church of Christ that were One Cuppers, that had no Sunday School, that used many small cups, that had Sunday school, that didn't believe in having a Fellowship hall (because fellowship was to be done in peoples homes) and one that had a huge fellowship hall with a basketball court in it. Do I think it matters where you fellowship...No...just as long as you fellowship. We are given examples of fellowship in homes, in the courtyards, on hilltops, and in the temples. The point Kay that I am making here I guess is...just because your husband did know about it...doesn't mean it was not taught at one time or another. But we as Christians are not to rely strickly on teaching from the pulpit. Most all now have a Bible...and Most all can read...and it is there in black and white. We are all responsible for studying the scriptures.

I have never been taught that it is wrong to lift hands in prayer.

Miss Mally
06-24-2004, 09:34 AM
My mind is too young for this. I want to keep my faith strong and this is killing me! Therefore, im not posting or reading this anymore.

I hate RELIGION and I hate man for screwing it all up into DENOMINATIONS. I hate those two words more than anything. Im just going to follow God’s plan for my life and go through the doors he opens for me no matter where they take me. Where I end up is where I end up. That may sound contradicting but religion and anything to do with my God are totally different to me. If one gets caught up in religion they will soon dry up and never be able to actually feel anything from God. Anyways, I just really cant imagine god sending a woman who has brought ppl to the Lord from the pulpit to hell.

Mally, if you had the power of tongues in you, you’d be one awesome lady. (although you could already, but what do I know) Why take any chances right? It strengthens you more than anything else I can think of.

Ive also decided im addicted to the computer so im not going to be on so much because its taking away my time from God. And the passing of my friend has made me realize more than ever that we don’t have long on this earth and we are not promised another day so we better prepare ourselves every chance we get and try our best to stay strong in HIM.
*sorry if I just went overboard, that was just all that was on my mind*

I think raising hands in church is beautiful and profitable.

I am sorry this has upset you Soul. Perhaps we have gotten into the meat here before some were ready. I honestly believe that if you study the scriptures and test what anyone....including and most especially me...tells you against the scriptures...and go with what the scriptures tell you...you will do well.

I do understand your anger (with cause) about the denominations. I think this makes Jesus angry too. He hates devisions in his Church. He died for it...and he most certainly could not have wished for it to spinter as it has. The body does not work well when parts have been chopped off.

Girlie
06-24-2004, 09:56 AM
My mind is too young for this. I want to keep my faith strong and this is killing me! Therefore, im not posting or reading this anymore.

I hate RELIGION and I hate man for screwing it all up into DENOMINATIONS. I hate those two words more than anything. Im just going to follow God’s plan for my life and go through the doors he opens for me no matter where they take me. Where I end up is where I end up. That may sound contradicting but religion and anything to do with my God are totally different to me. If one gets caught up in religion they will soon dry up and never be able to actually feel anything from God. Anyways, I just really cant imagine god sending a woman who has brought ppl to the Lord from the pulpit to hell.

Mally, if you had the power of tongues in you, you’d be one awesome lady. (although you could already, but what do I know) Why take any chances right? It strengthens you more than anything else I can think of.

Ive also decided im addicted to the computer so im not going to be on so much because its taking away my time from God. And the passing of my friend has made me realize more than ever that we don’t have long on this earth and we are not promised another day so we better prepare ourselves every chance we get and try our best to stay strong in HIM.
*sorry if I just went overboard, that was just all that was on my mind*

I think raising hands in church is beautiful and profitable.


sdf, I sent you a PM because some of what I had to say was just too personal to put here. Please check your PM box soon.

Miss Mally
06-24-2004, 10:21 AM
You know...I think one of the hardest struggles we face as Christians...is dealing with family and close friends. We do not want to offend anyone...and we don't want them to be wrong...we want to think that God will except their actions and beliefs. We want things to stay the same. We want eveyone to get to heaven...and like to think they will regarless of their beliefs and actions. When our parents and Grandparents have taught us things, established traditions we cling to them.

Imagine how hard it must have been for the first Jews to follow Jesus. He was asking them to give up everything. How many son's fathers were angry? Jesus changed everything for them.

We are asked to give it all up to follow him. "have thine affections been nailed to the cross? Is thy heart right with God?"

Girlie
06-24-2004, 10:35 AM
Personally, I did not have much Christian traditions to go on as a young person. My parents (how I love them so) did not go to church with my sister and I, but they sent us. My sister and I did not struggle with traditions, we have not struggled with "religion" for it was very clear to both of us that Christianity is about a relationship with the Father through Jesus Christ ... and the empowerment that the Father has given us as His children.

However, even though I have not struggled with "traditions" or "religion", I can agree that they must be one of the hardest things to overcome in ones's faith.

Pond
06-24-2004, 10:52 AM
The Lord has told "ME" to be silent here ! The reason I think he has because it would not be pretty to hear .... The lord is" Love and personal" !!
Soul ...you follow your heart and the lord .. everyone is not right ..but who is there to tell me that I am perfect in what I believe.. I know I have to stand alone before GOD and I am ready to do that ... Bless you all..

Miss Mally
06-24-2004, 10:57 AM
Personally, I did not have much Christian traditions to go on as a young person. My parents (how I love them so) did not go to church with my sister and I, but they sent us. My sister and I did not struggle with traditions, we have not struggled with "religion" for it was very clear to both of us that Christianity is about a relationship with the Father through Jesus Christ ... and the empowerment that the Father has given us as His children.

However, even though I have not struggled with "traditions" or "religion", I can agree that they must be one of the hardest things to overcome in ones's faith.



I have had to struggle with somethings...my mom and I have debated things heavily at times.

My Grandmother was brough up hardshell baptist....but during the late sixties early seventies...she went through that bra burning thing...and then decided to search out other religions...and she was Hindu for a while...focusing heavily on karma yoga. Then she went into Budism. Finally...I think she just combined alot of things....including astrology and tarot cards. She and I would have big religious discussions. From the time I can remember she was like this. We had big discussions on the Bible...that went from there to transending. She so wanted me to believe as she did. And I have spent many years praying for her soul. I remember one time when I was getting stitches...she showed up...and whispered in my ear to say a mantra...kereeeem...kereeeem. I told her later...that I would have laughed if I hadn't been hurting so much...and that I just decided I would talk to God in my Head. That worked better than kereeeeem. She laughed too. Her sister is a priestess in a religion that follows the teachings of someone named BaaBa...and she got into that for just a short period of time. I hurt her feelings really bad one time...because she wanted to take me to have my cards read...and I refused....telling her it was against God. I hated to hurt her...but I could not participate...and had to take a stand.

In the last ten years or so...she has started studying her bible again. She has given up those other ideas...and finally told her sister here while back that she didn't want to hear anymore Baaba this and baaba that. lol

For me...I spent twenty something years struggling with this...as she was one of my favorite people in the world. I ached for her...and I knew she was hurt because I rejected her beliefs. She didn't understand....it was all about love and kindness as far as she could see.

Pond
06-24-2004, 11:01 AM
The Baptist didn`t have a dang thing to do with your Grandma burning her bra ... get real here !

Miss Mally
06-24-2004, 11:08 AM
The Baptist didn`t have a dang thing to do with your Grandma burning her bra ... get real here !

I didn't say they did. I was giving things in the order that happened. Sorry if it came across that way.

She said she left the hard shell Baptist because they were feet washers. She didn't have a problem washing other peoples feet...but she just couldn't let them wash hers.

Anonymous
06-24-2004, 11:23 AM
The way I see it, honestly? There are some things that women SHOULD not do. But at the same time, I know that God's will for us is to Glorify him, to know him... to share his words with people.

Some women feel strongly led into the Ministry, to become missionaries either here or abroad. Everyone is called to be a missionary. The great commission is not gender specific.

Women are called to be submissive to their husbands, but husbands shouldn't have COMPLETE control of them. Husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the church, which I take to mean that their love should be self sacrificing, devoted... I also believe if both the husband and the wife love God more than anything else, their relationship will be Godly.

If God gives a woman the gift of preaching, then why shouldn't she preach?

Miss Mally
06-24-2004, 11:32 AM
The way I see it, honestly? There are some things that women SHOULD not do. But at the same time, I know that God's will for us is to Glorify him, to know him... to share his words with people.

Some women feel strongly led into the Ministry, to become missionaries either here or abroad. Everyone is called to be a missionary. The great commission is not gender specific.

Women are called to be submissive to their husbands, but husbands shouldn't have COMPLETE control of them. Husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the church, which I take to mean that their love should be self sacrificing, devoted... I also believe if both the husband and the wife love God more than anything else, their relationship will be Godly.

If God gives a woman the gift of preaching, then why shouldn't she preach?

I basicly can say...i agree with most of what you have written. I do believe women can preach. I have heard some great women preachers teaching the ladies...doing ladies days etc.

There is no calling from God that can not be performed within the guidelines of the scriptures.

Girlie
06-24-2004, 12:04 PM
Alright, this is where it gets a little confusing and may have to become technical to a degree, but what is the difference, literally, between a preacher and a pastor? Is it that Pastors preach but Preachers don't pastor?

If this is so, are women who are preachers still in authority over men? Or are they to be preachers of women only?

Anyone know??

I know some people who are women who know they are called to be preachers ... and some who are Pastors.

And just for the record, I am not trying to make excuses for the Bible to fit my lifestyle or my way of thinking. I just want to understand and have as much knowledge as I possibly can! :)

Miss Mally
06-24-2004, 12:35 PM
Alright, this is where it gets a little confusing and may have to become technical to a degree, but what is the difference, literally, between a preacher and a pastor? Is it that Pastors preach but Preachers don't pastor?

If this is so, are women who are preachers still in authority over men? Or are they to be preachers of women only?

Anyone know??

I know some people who are women who know they are called to be preachers ... and some who are Pastors.

And just for the record, I am not trying to make excuses for the Bible to fit my lifestyle or my way of thinking. I just want to understand and have as much knowledge as I possibly can! :)

I know that Girlie...I have never thought you were making excuses...you are someone who strives to seek the truth...it is obvious in your attitude.

Okay...Pastor...haveing the same definition as elder or Bishop. All derived from the same Greek word that is to shepard. Pastors, Elders and Bishops are all the leaders or the shepards of the Church.

The qualifications for this leadership role is listed in Timothy Chapter Two and again Paul explains the order to Titus...who is in Crete. This is in the first Chapter of Titus.

An Elder or Pastor should be able to teach and do so...but they have other duties as well. They oversee the work of the Church. Thus they are also called overseers of the Church. They are in authority over the flock...but with this authority comes much servitude....as Jesus is our Shepard and he became a servant to us. He set this example to us by washing the feet of the Apostles (not to mention dying for us).

We are all called to spread the Good News and we are given guidelines for doing this. There are those who are teachers and those who preach the doctrines. They do these things...and are not Elders or Pastors. There are those who are ministers...who minister to the sick, the elderly, the youth etc.

Paul was preacher and minister...but never a Pastor. He was a missionary. He was an apostle. Elders or Pastors are chosen, based on their qualifications and stay with one congregation and lead it. Peter was a Pastor to the Church in Jerusalem.

Some call anyone who teaches a Pastor....this becomes a dispute over definition etc. It comes down to the same thing as "it depends on what YOUR definition of IS is". This truely isn't something which should be fought over or to have divisions over....but...as seen in Big's situation with the way a man worded his interpretation....it can cause confussion. Timothy was a young man, unmarried with no children. Pastors and Elders are to be the husbands of one wife, have children who are in subordination, not a novice (not a new Christian). Timothy was not qualified to be a Pastor...but...even with his youth and inexperience in somethings (such as raising children and marriage) he was able to spread the Good News.

Girlie
06-24-2004, 12:51 PM
Thank you for that ....

Now, I have done some online research and I found it very interesting that www.bible.com would have this "sermon" on their site. This supports what and why I believe the way that I do in that it is fine for women to be in leadership positions. And yes, it was written by a woman, but does that really matter? There is also a link to another article written by a man who lines out the women of the early church who were leaders ....

If anyone is interested, here's the link. I didn't want to put the entire thing on here for copyright laws or whatever ... (when in doubt, leave it out, right? lol) but this is very interesting, or at least to me it is.

What Does The Bible Say About Women In Ministry? (http://www.bible.com/answers/awomemin.html)*click to find out*

Miss Mally
06-24-2004, 01:57 PM
Someone is definately lying here....That woman wrote that with the equality given by Christ...all women are restored to equality with man....and that we would no longer have pain in Child bearing.

I had pain all four times. I ain't never met but one gal who didn't have some sort of pain....and that was my cousin...she had three and never hurt a lick...but she don't believe in the Bible...or Christ...she ain't never been saved.


I have definately a complaint....I want to know why the pain is suppose to go and it didn't???!!!!!

"Through Jesus, the curse upon women has been lifted. Women no longer have to receive pain in childbirth nor are they inferior to man with him ruling over them. Women can now be restored to their original place and plan that God had for all His "sons."" -Betty Miller

Girlie
06-24-2004, 02:12 PM
Someone is definately lying here....That woman wrote that with the equality given by Christ...all women are restored to equality with man....and that we would no longer have pain in Child bearing.

I had pain all four times. I ain't never met but one gal who didn't have some sort of pain....and that was my cousin...she had three and never hurt a lick...but she don't believe in the Bible...or Christ...she ain't never been saved.


I have definately a complaint....I want to know why the pain is suppose to go and it didn't???!!!!!

"Through Jesus, the curse upon women has been lifted. Women no longer have to receive pain in childbirth nor are they inferior to man with him ruling over them. Women can now be restored to their original place and plan that God had for all His "sons."" -Betty Miller

hahahaha, Mally, ya gotta read the WHOLE paragraph, ya can't just cut out what ya want !! hahahahahaha

Though the complete cleansing of the curse has not yet been manifested on the earth, the day is coming when it will be so. Or to put it another way, all those who receive Jesus as Savior receive restoration as Sons of God, but not all of us walk in that restoration--yet. Through Jesus, the curse upon women has been lifted. Women no longer have to receive pain in childbirth nor are they inferior to man with him ruling over them. Women can now be restored to their original place and plan that God had for all His "sons." Although we do not see all things restored at this time, "legally" in the spiritual realm, they already have been.

This is the same thing as walking in our spiritual gifts. We've been given those gifts, but some of us don't know yet what they are or, not to mention, how to use them!

Believe me, I tried childbirth with no meds and complete and total trust in the Lord .... hahahahaha ... didn't work for me. Maybe I didn't have enough faith. But I do know several God fearing and believing women who have had 6+ children with no meds and little to no pain! I believe that in the end times, when God's church is being rapidly restored, we will see more of this ... just like we will see more of the miracle of healing, such as in the case with your uncle!

Miss Mally
06-24-2004, 02:27 PM
Someone is definately lying here....That woman wrote that with the equality given by Christ...all women are restored to equality with man....and that we would no longer have pain in Child bearing.

I had pain all four times. I ain't never met but one gal who didn't have some sort of pain....and that was my cousin...she had three and never hurt a lick...but she don't believe in the Bible...or Christ...she ain't never been saved.


I have definately a complaint....I want to know why the pain is suppose to go and it didn't???!!!!!

"Through Jesus, the curse upon women has been lifted. Women no longer have to receive pain in childbirth nor are they inferior to man with him ruling over them. Women can now be restored to their original place and plan that God had for all His "sons."" -Betty Miller

hahahaha, Mally, ya gotta read the WHOLE paragraph, ya can't just cut out what ya want !! hahahahahaha

Though the complete cleansing of the curse has not yet been manifested on the earth, the day is coming when it will be so. Or to put it another way, all those who receive Jesus as Savior receive restoration as Sons of God, but not all of us walk in that restoration--yet. Through Jesus, the curse upon women has been lifted. Women no longer have to receive pain in childbirth nor are they inferior to man with him ruling over them. Women can now be restored to their original place and plan that God had for all His "sons." Although we do not see all things restored at this time, "legally" in the spiritual realm, they already have been.

This is the same thing as walking in our spiritual gifts. We've been given those gifts, but some of us don't know yet what they are or, not to mention, how to use them!

Believe me, I tried childbirth with no meds and complete and total trust in the Lord .... hahahahaha ... didn't work for me. Maybe I didn't have enough faith. But I do know several God fearing and believing women who have had 6+ children with no meds and little to no pain! I believe that in the end times, when God's church is being rapidly restored, we will see more of this ... just like we will see more of the miracle of healing, such as in the case with your uncle!

Welllll....then I guess full equality in our roles as male and female hasn't been fulfilled yet.

When women ain't hurting in child birth...then they can tell men what to do. (though in all honesty...I did that one backwards....I was telling everyone what to do when I was hurting...be it man woman or child...no one wanted to be with in graspying reach while I was having my babies). hahahahahahaha



I have to say...I understand the gifts a bit different than you have stated...it is my understanding that when that which is Perfect (Christ) comes...the gifts will pass away...as they are no longer needed.

Girlie
06-24-2004, 02:45 PM
It has been done already, however, the evidence is not here .... yet.

Miss Mally
06-24-2004, 02:55 PM
It has been done already, however, the evidence is not here .... yet.

Our equality is in not the physical but the spirital. I find no where in the Bible that says while we are in these Earthly bodies we will not have child birth pains.

I also find no where that says our equality is in anything but salvation and grace.

Ms. Miller uses the same scripture that Art did for the basis of her lesson. But...she did the very thing that you told me I couldn't do...she took it out of the context in which it is writen. All of Galations is about not having to follow the old law...that the Jews couldn't force the Greeks to uphold Jewish tradition in order to be Christians or have Salvation. When Paul speaks to the Galations about all being the same....he tells them...and us that we are equal Heirs in salvation. Paul clarifies what he is talking about...if you don't quit reading to soon. Much like Ms. Miller clarifies her beliefs...if you don't quit reading to soon. (There was a point to my madness)

BigGunz
06-24-2004, 03:03 PM
To paraphrase is to say something in different words than the author used. It is a restatement of an author's thoughts, using different words he did. Its purpose is to say Exactly as possible what the writers of the Scriptures meant, and to say it simply, expanding where necessary for a clear understanding by the modern reader.


Main Entry: 1para·phrase
Pronunciation: 'par-&-"frAz
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, from Latin paraphrasis, from Greek, from paraphrazein to paraphrase, from para- + phrazein to point out
1 : a restatement of a text, passage, or work giving the meaning in another form
2 : the use or process of paraphrasing in studying or teaching composition


So according to you its not any good to do if you dont really understand the words used in original and since we are talking about the bible its just useless?

Miss Mally
06-24-2004, 03:17 PM
To paraphrase is to say something in different words than the author used. It is a restatement of an author's thoughts, using different words he did. Its purpose is to say Exactly as possible what the writers of the Scriptures meant, and to say it simply, expanding where necessary for a clear understanding by the modern reader.


Main Entry: 1para·phrase
Pronunciation: 'par-&-"frAz
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, from Latin paraphrasis, from Greek, from paraphrazein to paraphrase, from para- + phrazein to point out
1 : a restatement of a text, passage, or work giving the meaning in another form
2 : the use or process of paraphrasing in studying or teaching composition


So according to you its not any good to do if you dont really understand the words used in original and since we are talking about the bible its just useless?

Big...this is why I really do try to stay with a literal translation...straight from the Greek or Hewbrew (the orginal languages it was written in). Paraphrasing somethings leaves out or adds words.

PARAPHRASE (2) : to express in more comprehensible terms : EXPLAIN, INTERPRET


Main Entry: in·ter·pret
Pronunciation: in-'t&r-pr&t, -p&t
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French interpreter, from Latin interpretari, from interpret-, interpres agent, negotiator, interpreter
transitive senses
1 : to explain or tell the meaning of : present in understandable terms
2 : to conceive in the light of individual belief, judgment, or circumstance : CONSTRUE


Big...I think in the overall scheme of things...whether you base your belief in Christ...and have the ability to put your Faith in the Word of God...should not be grounded in this problem of a paraphrased book.

Would you give the same credence to a Paraphrased version of the Bible...if I were the author? Could you be assured that I would not put my feelings and spin on things at best even subconciously?

A test here Big...of that one word...would be to check that word against the original Greek and see if it is sound. Another easier test...would be to compair it against all other traslated Bibles and see if it conforms.

I often use the Catholic Bible...New Testament...it is no different than that of the KJV or the NIV. Where there are some different words...these words have the exact same meaning.

BigGunz
06-24-2004, 03:25 PM
yes I would give you the same credence.....and if one doesnt understand it then they seek translation or interpretation...but it seems that if its not conformed then it is no good...seems to me that the word of God is the word of God just someone takes the time to simplitfy it into terms that some people can understand. When I go to church the Minister gives his sermon and quotes from the Scriptures word for word and sometimes in words we do not understand. Then he explains it it simpier terms and often times uses modern day happenings to compare with what he quoted so we better understand it. Am I to assume that if My minister does this and he his paraphrasing for us that he just might be misleading us?. or is he truly trying to help us better understand?

Gearldean
06-24-2004, 03:29 PM
[b]My mind is too young for this. I want to keep my faith strong and this is killing me! Therefore, im not posting or reading this anymore.

I hate RELIGION and I hate man for screwing it all up into DENOMINATIONS. I hate those two words more than anything...
The reaction of SDF is the reason I refuse to participate in a long debate using Scripture. While it might be helpful to some, it CAN be harmful to others, due to the intensity of our differing beliefs. Some may not have the faith that SDF does and might be turned away from God. We sure don't wanna "tickle their ears", though, by suggesting we don't believe they're going to hell on a skateboard if they are female and dare to speak in church or by suggesting that other differences won't keep them from Heaven's gates. In that regard, my belief is that acceptance of Jesus Christ as our Savior is the determining factor and no other.

Miss Mally
06-24-2004, 03:40 PM
[b]My mind is too young for this. I want to keep my faith strong and this is killing me! Therefore, im not posting or reading this anymore.

I hate RELIGION and I hate man for screwing it all up into DENOMINATIONS. I hate those two words more than anything...
The reaction of SDF is the reason I refuse to participate in a long debate using Scripture. While it might be helpful to some, it CAN be harmful to others, due to the intensity of our differing beliefs. Some may not have the faith that SDF does and might be turned away from God. We sure don't wanna "tickle their ears", though, by suggesting we don't believe they're going to hell on a skateboard if they are female and dare to speak in church or by suggesting that other differences won't keep them from Heaven's gates. In that regard, my belief is that acceptance of Jesus Christ as our Savior is the determining factor and no other.

Gd...I understand where you are coming from. But...I don't think anyone has said anyone else is going to hell here. This has been a fairly active study and debate of the scriptures...but no one is forced to read or participate.

Also...I wonder if Paul quit talking about God and Jesus and the scripture...because someone said it caused them to doubt God?

Sadly this has become another way of silencing Christians.

Girlie
06-24-2004, 03:43 PM
biggunz ... I have a Living Bible, also, and it is in a parallel Bible with a King James Version. Often times, if I am not quite understanding what the KJV is leading to or saying, I will read from the Living Bible and compare the two scriptures or passages. I also have several other Bibles that I compare the same scriptures or passages. I do not think there is anything wrong with using the translation you are using. Also, if you become interested in purchasing another Bible some day, The Amplified Bible is pretty neat, but I would also read it in comparison with a King James Version and maybe a New International Version.

However, I did find a scripture in Luke that the King James had in it that the NIV did not ....

Our relationship with Jesus Christ, like Gearldean said, is really all that matters. When it comes time to stand in front of him, it will be us and him ... no one else ... and there will be absolutely no debate!

Miss Mally
06-24-2004, 04:42 PM
I went an looked up some that scripture in the New Living Bible on line. I couldn't find the Living Bible...online but I am still looking.

1 Timothy 4:6 -
If you explain this to the brothers and sisters, you will be doing your duty as a worthy servant of Christ Jesus, one who is fed by the message of faith and the true teaching you have followed.

Miss Mally
06-24-2004, 04:51 PM
Here is a bit more information on the Living Bible.

http://thesumners.com/bible/methods3.html

this page shows a differnce in the scriptures

Take, for example, this famous passage, as presented in The Living Bible:


Before anything else existed, there was Christ, with God. He has always been alive and is himself God. He created everything there is - nothing exists that he didn't make. Eternal life is in him, and this life gives light to all mankind. His life is the light that shines through the darkness - and the darkness can never extinguish it. [John 1:1-5, LIV]
Compare the New International Version's edition:


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

The Living Bible replaces "the Word" (Greek logos) with "Christ" and "Jesus Christ" throughout John 1. Although theologically agreeable to all Christians, this move is highly interpretive.

Girlie
06-24-2004, 04:55 PM
Jesus is considered the living word, the word made flesh .... how else could it be interpreted that wouldn't be ok?

If the answer is on that page, I didn't go to it ... running out the door, hahaha. And I'm taking my Bibles again. :)

Miss Mally
06-24-2004, 04:58 PM
Jesus is considered the living word, the word made flesh .... how else could it be interpreted that wouldn't be ok?

If the answer is on that page, I didn't go to it ... running out the door, hahaha. And I'm taking my Bibles again. :)

Not any other way...but the point is...it is an interpretation. The accual Greek used Word. I would prefer...for myself...to stick with literal translations instead of someone elses interpretation.

Miss Mally
06-24-2004, 05:03 PM
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. [John 1:14, NIV]

And Christ became a human being and lived here on earth among us and was full of loving foregiveness and truth. And some of us have seen his glory - the glory of the only Son of the heavenly Father! [John 1:14, LIV]

Anonymous
06-24-2004, 07:35 PM
[b]My mind is too young for this. I want to keep my faith strong and this is killing me! Therefore, im not posting or reading this anymore.

I hate RELIGION and I hate man for screwing it all up into DENOMINATIONS. I hate those two words more than anything...
The reaction of SDF is the reason I refuse to participate in a long debate using Scripture. While it might be helpful to some, it CAN be harmful to others, due to the intensity of our differing beliefs. Some may not have the faith that SDF does and might be turned away from God. We sure don't wanna "tickle their ears", though, by suggesting we don't believe they're going to hell on a skateboard if they are female and dare to speak in church or by suggesting that other differences won't keep them from Heaven's gates. In that regard, my belief is that acceptance of Jesus Christ as our Savior is the determining factor and no other.

I like your reply G. People should never argue over religion or politics. Stating opinions is one thing, but you should never try and cram anything down someones throat. The bible says some have eyes to see and ears to hear and some won't. That's why all the interpretations. The bible says the more you know, the more you're held accountable. If we are taught wrong or brought up wrong, who is to be held accountable? So with all that we know, or think we know, we should all abide by our beliefs and all will be well.

BigGunz
06-24-2004, 07:47 PM
"We do not want Churches because they will teach us to quarrel about God, as the Catholics and Protestants do. We do not want to learn that.
We may quarrel with men sometimes about things on this earth. But we never quarrel about God. We do not want to learn that."

Chief Joseph
Nez Perce

Miss Mally
06-24-2004, 08:00 PM
"We do not want Churches because they will teach us to quarrel about God, as the Catholics and Protestants do. We do not want to learn that.
We may quarrel with men sometimes about things on this earth. But we never quarrel about God. We do not want to learn that."

Chief Joseph
Nez Perce

Jesus died for the Church.

Gearldean
06-24-2004, 08:43 PM
Gd...I understand where you are coming from. But...I don't think anyone has said anyone else is going to hell here. This has been a fairly active study and debate of the scriptures...but no one is forced to read or participate.

Also...I wonder if Paul quit talking about God and Jesus and the scripture...because someone said it caused them to doubt God?

Sadly this has become another way of silencing Christians.
Now, Mally, you know nobody is trying to silence Christians and I know that you didn't say anyone was going to hell but the implication is there. I know that no one is forced to read or participate but the fact is that they do. I just think it's important that we are careful about what we say and how we say it so it doesn't give folks the wrong impression.

Miss Mally
06-24-2004, 08:46 PM
[b]My mind is too young for this. I want to keep my faith strong and this is killing me! Therefore, im not posting or reading this anymore.

I hate RELIGION and I hate man for screwing it all up into DENOMINATIONS. I hate those two words more than anything...
The reaction of SDF is the reason I refuse to participate in a long debate using Scripture. While it might be helpful to some, it CAN be harmful to others, due to the intensity of our differing beliefs. Some may not have the faith that SDF does and might be turned away from God. We sure don't wanna "tickle their ears", though, by suggesting we don't believe they're going to hell on a skateboard if they are female and dare to speak in church or by suggesting that other differences won't keep them from Heaven's gates. In that regard, my belief is that acceptance of Jesus Christ as our Savior is the determining factor and no other.

I like your reply G. People should never argue over religion or politics. Stating opinions is one thing, but you should never try and cram anything down someones throat. The bible says some have eyes to see and ears to hear and some won't. That's why all the interpretations. The bible says the more you know, the more you're held accountable. If we are taught wrong or brought up wrong, who is to be held accountable? So with all that we know, or think we know, we should all abide by our beliefs and all will be well.

Are you saying it is better not to study the scriptures?

Miss Mally
06-24-2004, 08:49 PM
Gd...I understand where you are coming from. But...I don't think anyone has said anyone else is going to hell here. This has been a fairly active study and debate of the scriptures...but no one is forced to read or participate.

Also...I wonder if Paul quit talking about God and Jesus and the scripture...because someone said it caused them to doubt God?

Sadly this has become another way of silencing Christians.
Now, Mally, you know nobody is trying to silence Christians and I know that you didn't say anyone was going to hell but the implication is there. I know that no one is forced to read or participate but the fact is that they do. I just think it's important that we are careful about what we say and how we say it so it doesn't give folks the wrong impression.

I don't believe it was implied. We all sin and fall short. I believe we should all study and have discorse in order to better learn the will of God. No correction from either side of this issue has appeared to me to imply the Judgement of Hell in any form.

Rhiannon
06-24-2004, 08:52 PM
I have not participated in this thread. I have had a hard time reading this thread.

BigGunz
06-24-2004, 09:05 PM
"We do not want Churches because they will teach us to quarrel about God, as the Catholics and Protestants do. We do not want to learn that.
We may quarrel with men sometimes about things on this earth. But we never quarrel about God. We do not want to learn that."

Chief Joseph
Nez Perce

Jesus died for the Church.

Thats true..then why do they fight amongst each other then?

Miss Mally
06-24-2004, 09:10 PM
"We do not want Churches because they will teach us to quarrel about God, as the Catholics and Protestants do. We do not want to learn that.
We may quarrel with men sometimes about things on this earth. But we never quarrel about God. We do not want to learn that."

Chief Joseph
Nez Perce

Jesus died for the Church.

Thats true..then why do they fight amongst each other then?

Because we allow worldly things to interfer. We put ourselves and our wants before our brothers. Because we cling to those things that edify us and not our brother or the Lord. Because no one really likes to be in submission...though we are all called to it...not just women. Because we are not perfect. we do not follow the two greatest commands fully.

I have always found that quote from Chief Joseph odd...concidering that Indians tribes spent centuries fighting against each other and destroying each other. He was mightly quick to judge.

BigGunz
06-24-2004, 09:20 PM
"We do not want Churches because they will teach us to quarrel about God, as the Catholics and Protestants do. We do not want to learn that.
We may quarrel with men sometimes about things on this earth. But we never quarrel about God. We do not want to learn that."

Chief Joseph
Nez Perce

Jesus died for the Church.

Thats true..then why do they fight amongst each other then?

Because we allow worldly things to interfer. We put ourselves and our wants before our brothers. Because we cling to those things that edify us and not our brother or the Lord. Because no one really likes to be in submission...though we are all called to it...not just women. Because we are not perfect. we do not follow the two greatest commands fully.

I have always found that quote from Chief Joseph odd...concidering that Indians tribes spent centuries fighting against each other and destroying each other. He was mightly quick to judge.

I dont think he was judging...and even in his quote he states they quarrel with men over earthly things but never about God...I think that was his point.

Miss Mally
06-24-2004, 09:38 PM
"We do not want Churches because they will teach us to quarrel about God, as the Catholics and Protestants do. We do not want to learn that.
We may quarrel with men sometimes about things on this earth. But we never quarrel about God. We do not want to learn that."

Chief Joseph
Nez Perce

Jesus died for the Church.

Thats true..then why do they fight amongst each other then?

Because we allow worldly things to interfer. We put ourselves and our wants before our brothers. Because we cling to those things that edify us and not our brother or the Lord. Because no one really likes to be in submission...though we are all called to it...not just women. Because we are not perfect. we do not follow the two greatest commands fully.

I have always found that quote from Chief Joseph odd...concidering that Indians tribes spent centuries fighting against each other and destroying each other. He was mightly quick to judge.

I dont think he was judging...and even in his quote he states they quarrel with men over earthly things but never about God...I think that was his point.

and we are talking about a group of people that was polytheistic. Though I would have to disagree with his statement...as not all tribes worshiped the same Gods...and many took territory...but also felt justified because this tribe put Earth above Sun. Some tribes were completely wiped out...because they were monotheistic...and did not grant equality to all creatures.

It has also been my experience...though the disagreement is of a religious nature...it always comes down to worldly way.

BigGunz
06-24-2004, 09:46 PM
he is speaking when he is told that the people MUST join the church!...has nothing to do with his belief in God..it has to do with curches and sects...he didnt want to conform to one he felt that arguement errupt over the simpliest things...The word Of God and he felt this wasnt right...especially when the white man hounded them heathens ran them off their rightful lands and slaughtered them. And many were slaughtered! Not just by tribal wars which were not waged over God or Gods ether...yet the white man killed them in the name of God.

BigGunz
06-24-2004, 09:48 PM
"The Earth is the mother of all people, and all people should have equal rights upon it."

Chief Joseph 1879

Girlie
06-24-2004, 10:18 PM
I have not participated in this thread. I have had a hard time reading this thread.

I'm sorry, Rhiannon, if my participation in this thread has caused you any grief ... or any undue emotions, or whatever the reason is you have had a hard time reading this ... and especially if it has kept you from participating. I am only after the truth ... and most times I have to dig to find it because it can become so clouded ...

I pray you accept my apologies. :(

Miss Mally
06-24-2004, 10:24 PM
"The Earth is the mother of all people, and all people should have equal rights upon it."

Chief Joseph 1879

Did you know that Chief Joseph's father was baptized a Christian...and that after some of the Whitman masseacres...Chief Joseph the Older and Chief Joseph no longer had good relations with the missionary.

Have you ever wondered why he Carried a Christian name.

BigGunz
06-24-2004, 10:30 PM
Yes I knew that and also the fact it was a missionary (Joseph Spaulding) that tried to lead them astray and even after all that Chief Joseph still called him a good man of God!

Miss Mally
06-24-2004, 10:35 PM
he is speaking when he is told that the people MUST join the church!...has nothing to do with his belief in God..it has to do with curches and sects...he didnt want to conform to one he felt that arguement errupt over the simpliest things...The word Of God and he felt this wasnt right...especially when the white man hounded them heathens ran them off their rightful lands and slaughtered them. And many were slaughtered! Not just by tribal wars which were not waged over God or Gods ether...yet the white man killed them in the name of God.

The Nez Perce ran people off of that land in order that they might inhabit it.

Chief Joseph was not forced to become a Christian....though he was forced off of his land. There is some dispute over whether the US broke treaty or whether the Nez Perce did. There were accually two treaties signed by Chief Josephs father. The first was broken by the Nez Perce in a massacre...and a second was signed...where as the Nez Perce gave up some of their land. This second treaty was with Chief Joseph the Old as well...but he came back later and said his people would not except it. The US government held it as final. When Chief Joseph the older died...the younger men of the tribe refused to abide by the treaty. When the military came in to remove them, Chief Joseph said they would go peacefully...but some of the younger men went on a killing spree...and after that Chief Joseph banned with them.

I am neither defending nor condemning either side here. I see both at fault.

But I will tell you this...I do not put my faith in the words of Chief Joseph...but instead in the Word of God.

BigGunz
06-24-2004, 10:35 PM
Did you also know that Chief Joseph was considered by Native and Non Native people alike as one of the greatest of all Indian leaders. Some think he was one of the greates men who ever lived. And at his death the docotr who tended to him for the last 14 yrs of his life (Dr E.H. Latham) explained his death simply : "Chief Joseph died of a broken heart...."

Miss Mally
06-24-2004, 10:36 PM
Yes I knew that and also the fact it was a missionary (Joseph Spaulding) that tried to lead them astray and even after all that Chief Joseph still called him a good man of God!

What do you mean lead them astray?

RogueEconomist
06-24-2004, 10:42 PM
I applaud Miss Mally for witnessing to the truth. She has presented all
with a solid scripture based presentation. What she has told you is the truth and seems well founded on the word of God. Only God can open ones eyes, she can only witness to the truth.

Miss Mally
06-24-2004, 10:56 PM
I applaud Miss Mally for witnessing to the truth. She has presented all
with a solid scripture based presentation. What she has told you is the truth and seems well founded on the word of God. Only God can open ones eyes, she can only witness to the truth.

thank you Rogue...I have tried to stay scrupturally sound in what I have said.

BigGunz
06-24-2004, 10:58 PM
Joseph assumed the role of Chief upon the death of his father in 1871. He inherited a situation of almost impossible complexity. In 1854 the Nez Perce bands had unwillingly signed a treaty with the US in an effort to protect their homelands. There is some question as to whether Josephs father actually signed this treaty, but it is clear that he was radically oppsed to the idea. Gold was discovered in 1860 and almost over night entire settlements had appeared on Nez perce land in direct violation of this treaty. The US had then pressured the perce to sign another treaty cutting the size of thier land even further In an effort to keep his land council was called and instructed the settlers to leave. Eventually a Presdential decree supported hsi positon but within a year the Commioner of Indian affairs reversed this decree without informing Joseph. Joseph took his people along with other non treaty Indians on the famous thousand mile flight through the rugged country of Oregon, Idaho, and Montana, in an attempt to get to Canada where they could live in peace. The Perce never looked upon their exodus as a fight. Indeed they fought only when it was necessary to facillitate their flight and tp protect their elderly and children. Joseph endeavored to keep the tempers of his warriors under control, and even helped white settlers he encounterd along the way. It was Spaulding who when Govenor Isaac Stevens of the washington territory who came to council to get Josephs father to sign the treaty that urged him to sign the treaty. Which he refused.

BigGunz
06-24-2004, 11:03 PM
i never insinuated that you or i or anyone else take the Chiefs word over God did I?...I just simply put a quote up to say simply that even the earliest of American people new not much of christianity but surely knew that argueing over God was not the way to be. But what do I know im just a heathen who reads a false bible !.....

Miss Mally
06-24-2004, 11:05 PM
See new thread.

Girlie
06-24-2004, 11:06 PM
i never insinuated that you or i or anyone else take the Chiefs word over God did I?...I just simply put a quote up to say simply that even the earliest of American people new not much of christianity but surely knew that argueing over God was not the way to be. But what do I know im just a heathen who reads a false bible !.....

biggunz...lol... I don't think you read a false bible ... now the heathen part .... rofl :)

Miss Mally
06-24-2004, 11:10 PM
it is a paraphrased bible.....and you sure are defensive of it. lol


and Big...someone who turns from God...when they have been taught...is not showing good sense...it is merely heart breaking.

BigGunz
06-24-2004, 11:21 PM
now thats offensive...I have never turned from God...NEVER!

Miss Mally
06-24-2004, 11:24 PM
now thats offensive...I have never turned from God...NEVER!

Sorry Big...I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about Chief Joseph. I was refering to the comment you had made about him. Sorry for the confussion. I should have used the quote directly...so you would understand what I ment. i was responding to a post you made that started out about Chief Joseph and ended with your little piece about being a heathen. I addressed the last first and the first last. Big mistake on my part.

Please except a very very sincer apology.

BigGunz
06-25-2004, 06:53 AM
Its ok...no problem...forgotten and done with. :D

Miss Mally
06-25-2004, 07:47 AM
Okay...

Good Morning to You! :)

I hope you slept well.

Anonymous
06-25-2004, 08:27 AM
I was under the impression that the FIRST written works of the bible were done in Aramaic. The Greek and the Hebrew came later. Have I been misinformed?

Girlie
06-25-2004, 08:29 AM
I was under the impression that the FIRST written works of the bible were done in Aramaic. The Greek and the Hebrew came later. Have I been misinformed?

I have no idea lamb, I'd have to look that up somehow!

kay
06-25-2004, 08:32 AM
Guys I am going to voice my opinion here and take it for what it's worth. If anthing any of us ever post hurts anyone spiritually (especially one of our youth) then we should stop it. Religion can be argued for years and nothing ever solved. Why don't we let this one die down and move on. I feel that we hurt a kid (I think soulddancefree) is one of our younger posters and I would NEVER do anything to harm them spiritually. Since we have young kids on here, can't we all agree to just disagree. Nobody is going to come out a winner if we hurt someone spiritually.