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Thread: Confederate Flags

  1. #1
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    Confederate Flags

    Those wanting to ride with the group putting out the Flags on all Confederate Vets graves in Eastland County are welcome to ride their bikes and join in. Leaving 116 North Seaman at 9 am. Saturday, May 12. Round trip is about 165 miles and should return to Eastland about 2pm. Should be a nice ride plus educational. Sounds good to me.

  2. #2

    Re: Confederate Flags

    im there

  3. #3
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    How was May 12th selected as the day for this? Is anything done in honor of those Confederate soldiers on April 26th (Confererate Memorial Day). Are there any Union troops buried in Eastland? Are U.S. flags placed on their graves?

    Are flags placed on the graves of those who fought in more recent wars? I feel all dead soldiers deserve to be honored with flags at least once a year.

    It would seem Memorial Day might also be a good time to place flags. Of course, flags placed on May 12th would probably still be flying on Memorial Day.

    I love the idea of honoring those who gave their lives in battle for their nation (or, in the case of the Civil War, for whatever side they fought for). Flags offer us a very tangible and visible method of showing that honor.

    Many very brave troops have given their all in battle during the history of this nation, and we must never ever forget their sacrafice.

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    LOH, Yes to almost all of your questions... there are Yankee graves in the county and no the confederate flag is not set on their graves...SOC is mostly a mocha white male organization in the area...(I consider them a hate group)...and yes the veterans graves in the county are all decorated with small American flags before Memorial Day...the Veterans Association does this the week before Memorial Day...the VA in one town is the former VFW wheras all veterans may be members...

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbritches View Post
    Those wanting to ride with the group putting out the Flags on all Confederate Vets graves in Eastland County are welcome to ride their bikes and join in. Leaving 116 North Seaman at 9 am. Saturday, May 12. Round trip is about 165 miles and should return to Eastland about 2pm. Should be a nice ride plus educational. Sounds good to me.

    Are you part of a hate group??

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    If you hear of a ride involving putting AMERICAN flags on all veterans graves, I would be interested in that.

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by pesttrapper View Post
    Are you part of a hate group??
    No, I am not part of a hate group, What gives you that idea??? Since we ride , we were asked if we wanted to join that ride. That is all there is to it. No more!!!!!

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by BikerJJ View Post
    If you hear of a ride involving putting AMERICAN flags on all veterans graves, I would be interested in that.
    I think the VFW does that here in Eastland. that would be a great ride, tho to do all Eastland County.

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbritches View Post
    No, I am not part of a hate group, What gives you that idea??? Since we ride , we were asked if we wanted to join that ride. That is all there is to it. No more!!!!!
    I took it from Junes post. I felt like it indicated that the confederate flag thing was put on by the SOCV and that they were a "hate group". I couldnt imagine YOU being a part of anything like that. Just wondering. I appreciate you recognizing the history of the south!!!

  10. #10

    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by june View Post
    LOH, Yes to almost all of your questions... there are Yankee graves in the county and no the confederate flag is not set on their graves...SOC is mostly a mocha white male organization in the area...(I consider them a hate group)...and yes the veterans graves in the county are all decorated with small American flags before Memorial Day...the Veterans Association does this the week before Memorial Day...the VA in one town is the former VFW wheras all veterans may be members...
    Yes, the SCV is an all male group, hence the name - SONS of Confederate Veterans. As for the hate group business; that would be news to H. K. Edgarton, a black man from South Carolina (and also an SCV member) who has marched across the United States carrying a battle flag and wearing a Confederate uniform in protest of the uninformed characterzations of a legitimate heritage organization such as those offered in your post. Or consider the late Dr. Emerson Emory, an African American physician and civil rights pioneer, whose father served in the 17th Texas Cavalry, CSA. Dr. Emery, who passed away in 2003, was the long-time commander of the Gaston-Gregg SCV Camp in Dallas, and proudly wore a jacket with a Confederate flag emblazoned on it. Lee Alcorn, the head of the NAACP in Dallas eulogized him at his funeral...I would hope that local SCV members, and the public at large, will be able to pay tribute to the honorable service of the men who served in the Army, Navy and Marines of the Confederate States of America - free from the scorn of the politically correct crowd (such as you) that have just about turned this country into the most intolerant society on the planet.

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by bow452003 View Post
    Yes, the SCV is an all male group, hence the name - SONS of Confederate Veterans. As for the hate group business; that would be news to H. K. Edgarton, a black man from South Carolina (and also an SCV member) who has marched across the United States carrying a battle flag and wearing a Confederate uniform in protest of the uninformed characterzations of a legitimate heritage organization such as those offered in your post. Or consider the late Dr. Emerson Emory, an African American physician and civil rights pioneer, whose father served in the 17th Texas Cavalry, CSA. Dr. Emery, who passed away in 2003, was the long-time commander of the Gaston-Gregg SCV Camp in Dallas, and proudly wore a jacket with a Confederate flag emblazoned on it. Lee Alcorn, the head of the NAACP in Dallas eulogized him at his funeral...I would hope that local SCV members, and the public at large, will be able to pay tribute to the honorable service of the men who served in the Army, Navy and Marines of the Confederate States of America - free from the scorn of the politically correct crowd (such as you) that have just about turned this country into the most intolerant society on the planet.
    Nice post Bow.

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Confederate soldiers died fighting for the south, and I would have no problem with a group of southerners who wanted to put flags on their graves, anymore than I would have a problem with northerners wanting to put flags on only the deceased union soldiers. I also wouldn't have a problem with them putting the confederate flag on these confederate soldiers' graves (they were not fighting for the United States). To me, putting a confederate flag on these graves does not have the same connotation as someone flying a confederate flag in front of their house every day.

    This is, of course, only my opinion. I do not know the group mentioned, but I presume SOC is meant to be Sons Of Confederate Veterans? I don't know much about the SCV other than they claim to be preserving the history and legacy of confederate heroes. Is that the group that is organizing this event? If not, what group is?

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    I stand by my remark...or in Eastland County that is...SOCV is a hate group, period...if you don't think so then why do they shoot me the finger when they see my vehicle?

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by june View Post
    I stand by my remark...or in Eastland County that is...SOCV is a hate group, period...if you don't think so then why do they shoot me the finger when they see my vehicle?
    I wonder? I cant imagine!! It is baffeling

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by june View Post
    I stand by my remark...or in Eastland County that is...SOCV is a hate group, period...if you don't think so then why do they shoot me the finger when they see my vehicle?
    June, maybe it's just there way of showing love. lol

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by june View Post
    I stand by my remark...or in Eastland County that is...SOCV is a hate group, period...if you don't think so then why do they shoot me the finger when they see my vehicle?
    They all travel together in one vehicle? .. sorry, couldn't resist.

    What group do you represent, June? Doesn't a hate group hate another race/group of people?

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by june View Post
    I stand by my remark...or in Eastland County that is...SOCV is a hate group, period...if you don't think so then why do they shoot me the finger when they see my vehicle?
    I'd shoot you the finger if I knew it was you driving by.

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by lucy View Post
    I'd shoot you the finger if I knew it was you driving by.
    LUCY!!!!!!! Mind your manners!
    Don't ask the Lord to guide your footsteps if you're not willing to move your feet.

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    Re: Confederate Flags


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    Re: Confederate Flags

    My 2 cents. SOCV is not a hate group. We have meetings once a month and you are welcome to attend and even more welcome to join. My husband is a member and I have attended many meetings and special grave dedications ect and never have I gotten the feeling it was a hate group. I consider myself to be a very open minded and fair American citizen and would not for one minute sanction this group if it was a hate group. Please come to the meetings and see for yourself. Contact Dan Hudson for time and location.
    We fly the battleflag of the Republic most of the time ; and yea buddy it is in our front yard. Proud of it. I think we all should be proud of it and proud we are from the south. Our ancestors were in that war and we cannot change history.Flying the flag is just a little something that my husband wanted to do and so I support that.I even got on the internet to learn all of the protocol that is associated with flying a flag ect.
    Sons of Confederate Veterans is a very fine orginization. They are interested in our history. Usually at the meeting a designated person will give a talk on one of our Confederate soldiers.It is interesting and informative.

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    confederate soldiers were fighting for what they believed in we should honor their sacrificies. after all we are respecting and honoring our military personal now and they are fighting a war no one HONESTLY believes in

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    The hate groups are the ones that mass graves at our National Cemeteries and then have nice little cared for graves for others....paid for by all our tax dollars....

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    My reasoning for posting this in the first place was for riding only. I don't give a flip who is putting what on graves, I was wanting to see the cemeteries and the locations. It would have been a nice ride with the scenery and someone got their britches in a wad and made a mountain out of nothing. All this hate crap is uncalled for when all I wanted to do was ride my little scooter with friends.

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Just received a nasty e-mail from someone that does not read this board that the hate crime act that was just passed protected the gay/lesbians only...I don't believe how ignorant people can be...the East Texas crimes caused many of the rep to vote for this bill...Hate is among us and I will be the first to admit it gets worse by the day or in some areas...the word was not allowed to be used in the home I was reared in...and the proper noun that is used on this board as a reference...oh! well! that will not be used by me or any one that I can refer to ... I have my choice words and references but will defer them for a later date...Keep Hope Alive!

  25. #25
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by Gearldean View Post
    LUCY!!!!!!! Mind your manners!
    Oh! well she got into a tangle with another person--that time aman whom she thought was chasing her...it takes all kinds to make the world stay on its axis...

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbritches View Post
    My reasoning for posting this in the first place was for riding only. I don't give a flip who is putting what on graves, I was wanting to see the cemeteries and the locations. It would have been a nice ride with the scenery and someone got their britches in a wad and made a mountain out of nothing. All this hate crap is uncalled for when all I wanted to do was ride my little scooter with friends.
    Well..you know how the spin goes on some days...If I had a scooter ..I would love to ride with you and visit all the county cemeteries...peace

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by morninglory View Post
    My 2 cents. SOCV is not a hate group. We have meetings once a month and you are welcome to attend and even more welcome to join. My husband is a member and I have attended many meetings and special grave dedications ect and never have I gotten the feeling it was a hate group. I consider myself to be a very open minded and fair American citizen and would not for one minute sanction this group if it was a hate group. Please come to the meetings and see for yourself. Contact Dan Hudson for time and location.
    We fly the battleflag of the Republic most of the time ; and yea buddy it is in our front yard. Proud of it. I think we all should be proud of it and proud we are from the south. Our ancestors were in that war and we cannot change history.Flying the flag is just a little something that my husband wanted to do and so I support that.I even got on the internet to learn all of the protocol that is associated with flying a flag ect.
    Sons of Confederate Veterans is a very fine orginization. They are interested in our history. Usually at the meeting a designated person will give a talk on one of our Confederate soldiers.It is interesting and informative.
    Everyone has the right to fly whatever flag they want, but I don't understand flying the confederate battle flag everyday, anymore than I understand flying a Mexican flag in front of your house here in the U.S.. What is the purpose of flying the confederate flag? To me, it either says "I'm racist" or it says "I don't like the present government and want to go back to the days of old". If it is being flown only as a pride in our nation that no longer stands.. why the battle flag, why not the stars and bars of the confederate national flag? There is nothing wrong with pride of your southern heritage (I've got deep southern roots from both my parents, and I married into it) and I love history and believe it is important to promote history, tell stories of our past, etc... but I don't necessarily want us to attempt seceeding from the U.S.

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by Pond View Post
    The hate groups are the ones that mass graves at our National Cemeteries and then have nice little cared for graves for others....paid for by all our tax dollars....
    I don't understand your post. Can you explain who is doing what?

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    As most everyone else on this board,I had relatives who fought on both sides in the Civil War.I don't know why I should be ashamed of any of them and I'm not.I had one who was from Arkansas and was captured at Vicksburg,when that city fell to the Union forces.Another one from Tennessee who was taken prisoner at Vicksburg and sent to Camp Morton,one of the awful POW camps.He died of dysentery there.I have papers on both men-the one in Camp Morton when dying,called in another man from his unit and asked him to tell his wife what had happened to him when he got back home and he did so.This was a heartbreaking time in our history,with lots of hardships.I don't think it is looked back on by most of us today with the mindset that some seem to think.The border states of Kentucky and Tennessee had a lot of problems,being torn between Northern and Southern armies,plus the awful "bushwackers" that roamed their lands,stealing and killing just because they could.Some of my kin were brothers who fought on different sides.Most people were caught up in something they had no control over and some were forced to take sides,being forced to join one side or another.
    You can't fix stupid!

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by june View Post
    Oh! well she got into a tangle with another person--that time aman whom she thought was chasing her...it takes all kinds to make the world stay on its axis...
    Yeah, well, maybe it does but there's some that I think we could do without. And it AIN'T Lucy! Bless her lil heart.

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Aww... Your so sweet GD!
    I think June needs to lay off the hooch. She isn't making any sense again.

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by lucy View Post
    Aww... Your so sweet GD!
    I think June needs to lay off the hooch. She isn't making any sense again.
    Now, Lucy, don't go makin accusations ya can't prove. You know durn goodnwell June's too poor to be spendin her money for intoxicatin drinks!

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Not if you can make it yourself. Who knows what she has cookin behind her house! LOL

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by Julie View Post
    I don't understand your post. Can you explain who is doing what?
    If you visit most Civil War battle fields...the Conferderate soldiers are buried in mass graves while there is a nice groomed cemetery nearby....my understanding is that they will not let the mass graves be changed in anyway...

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by Pond View Post
    If you visit most Civil War battle fields...the Conferderate soldiers are buried in mass graves while there is a nice groomed cemetery nearby....my understanding is that they will not let the mass graves be changed in anyway...
    Are you thinking they should be moved to the nearby cemetery? Or are you thinking they should take better care of the mass graves?

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    I`m thinking that they should let the families remove their love ones from the mass graves...If our tax dollars are going to be spent in care (2007 ) then let there be two cemeteries....they deserve to have a marker at each grave...

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by Julie View Post
    Everyone has the right to fly whatever flag they want, but I don't understand flying the confederate battle flag everyday, anymore than I understand flying a Mexican flag in front of your house here in the U.S.. What is the purpose of flying the confederate flag? To me, it either says "I'm racist" or it says "I don't like the present government and want to go back to the days of old". If it is being flown only as a pride in our nation that no longer stands.. why the battle flag, why not the stars and bars of the confederate national flag? There is nothing wrong with pride of your southern heritage (I've got deep southern roots from both my parents, and I married into it) and I love history and believe it is important to promote history, tell stories of our past, etc... but I don't necessarily want us to attempt seceeding from the U.S.
    This is exactly how I feel about it also.

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    http://www.carnton.org/history.htm

    This is a interesting read...I read the book Widow Of the South which was based on this battle....This is the only cemetery of it`s kind in the USA...

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Plenty of cemetarys and battlefields to visit in Virginia. Been there. So sad. They were so young. But very peaceful.

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    I have never been one to make any judgement on the 'right' or 'wrong' side of the Civil War. Most folks were pretty much destined for one side or the other based on geography. Hundreds of brave soldiers fought valiantly for each side, and the graves of both sides should be honored.

    I have absolutely no problem with the Stars and Bars being put on the graves of Confederate soldiers. In fact, I am strongly in favor of doing it.

    I think the real problem many folks have with the Stars and Bars has little or nothing to do with the fact it was used in a very difficult and costly war that split our nation. It has to do with the way that honorable symbol was misused in the century following that war.

    In the deep south, that flag was flown/brandished/waved at hundreds of floggings, lynchings, shootings, tortures, cross burnings, etc from soon after the Civil War until around 1970. THAT is the problem many have with the Stars and Bars.

    A banner that initially represented honor and sacrafice was misused to the extent that it came to represent the strong underlying desire of many Southerners to 'keep the n........ in their place'.

    As such, despite the fact a few Blacks have 'no problem' with this banner, many, if not most Blacks see it as as what it has actually been in their lifetime; a symbol of a faction that feels superior to them, and would have them reduced to a social and economic level well below whites.

    So we are not exactly talking 'politically correct' when we discuss the pros and cons of the Stars and Bars; we are talking about a banner that justifiably reprersents abuse, bigotry and terror to a large part of our population. And that is the plain unvarnished truth of the situation.

    So I strongly favor putting the Stars and Bars on the graves of the brave warriors who fought under it. I favor flying it at any and all Confederate monuments and memorials. It should fly proudly above all Confederate museums. I would have it flown along with Old Glory at all Civil War battle sites.

    But it does not belong on any state capitol building, on any state flag, on any governmental building of any type, and, because of the horrible way it has been misused during my lifetime, I would never want it flown on my property or displayed on my vehicle.

    I mean that in no way as insulting the brave Confederate soldiers. It was the evil-doing of those who came later that changed the meaning of the once proud Stars and Bars.

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    The NATIONAL civil war cemetary in Corinth, MS has exactly two confederate soldiers burried.
    Infinitus est numerus stultorum


  42. #42

    Re: Confederate Flags

    I think lightonthehill makes a very strong argument for not glorifying the confederate flag beyond the sacrifice of the soldiers who died fighting in the war.

    I can live with that argument because I would imagine that most of the men who died for the "South" had little or no input as to whether their state should have attempted secession and rebelled against the United States. As far as they were concerned, their government was ordering them to fight, and they were loyal to the government in power, which is not unusual or evil in itself.

    But this post caused me to reflect on the Confederacy and the various messages that can be communicated when remembering that short lived nation.
    Bottom line: The war was illegal- not even rising to the level of justification the Revolutionary War (which itself was probably illegal and unjustified) enjoyed.

    The practice of slavery is and was completely abhorent and is itself evidence of the extreme nature of depraved humanity. Despite the arguments that can be made for the flag, it stands for a sinful caste system that perverted the dignity of humans beings by reducing their value to that of mere chattle.
    That is the lasting legacy of the Confederacy.

    To peel back the onion even further, it seems that these Confederate memorials are often championed by middle to lower class white males of the fringe of society, who, with somber pagentry, display a sort of pitiful longing for the peculiar norms of that bygone era. These men seem to revel in the establishment opposition they encounter in their activities, and, thereby, in a sense, are able to identify with their fallen ancestors and feel a little bit rebellious and little more significant.

    A perfect example of this is the photo on the eastlandspin front page where a bunch of men are raising a confedrate flag while dressed up as civil war soldiers.

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by lightonthehill View Post
    I have never been one to make any judgement on the 'right' or 'wrong' side of the Civil War. Most folks were pretty much destined for one side or the other based on geography. Hundreds of brave soldiers fought valiantly for each side, and the graves of both sides should be honored.

    I have absolutely no problem with the Stars and Bars being put on the graves of Confederate soldiers. In fact, I am strongly in favor of doing it.

    I think the real problem many folks have with the Stars and Bars has little or nothing to do with the fact it was used in a very difficult and costly war that split our nation. It has to do with the way that honorable symbol was misused in the century following that war.

    In the deep south, that flag was flown/brandished/waved at hundreds of floggings, lynchings, shootings, tortures, cross burnings, etc from soon after the Civil War until around 1970. THAT is the problem many have with the Stars and Bars.

    A banner that initially represented honor and sacrafice was misused to the extent that it came to represent the strong underlying desire of many Southerners to 'keep the n........ in their place'.

    As such, despite the fact a few Blacks have 'no problem' with this banner, many, if not most Blacks see it as as what it has actually been in their lifetime; a symbol of a faction that feels superior to them, and would have them reduced to a social and economic level well below whites.

    So we are not exactly talking 'politically correct' when we discuss the pros and cons of the Stars and Bars; we are talking about a banner that justifiably reprersents abuse, bigotry and terror to a large part of our population. And that is the plain unvarnished truth of the situation.

    So I strongly favor putting the Stars and Bars on the graves of the brave warriors who fought under it. I favor flying it at any and all Confederate monuments and memorials. It should fly proudly above all Confederate museums. I would have it flown along with Old Glory at all Civil War battle sites.

    But it does not belong on any state capitol building, on any state flag, on any governmental building of any type, and, because of the horrible way it has been misused during my lifetime, I would never want it flown on my property or displayed on my vehicle.

    I mean that in no way as insulting the brave Confederate soldiers. It was the evil-doing of those who came later that changed the meaning of the once proud Stars and Bars.
    From my understanding, the stars and bars is the first national flag of the confederacy, not the battle flag.

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by Julie View Post
    From my understanding, the stars and bars is the first national flag of the confederacy, not the battle flag.
    You're right.

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by Styles View Post
    I think lightonthehill makes a very strong argument for not glorifying the confederate flag beyond the sacrifice of the soldiers who died fighting in the war.

    I can live with that argument because I would imagine that most of the men who died for the "South" had little or no input as to whether their state should have attempted secession and rebelled against the United States. As far as they were concerned, their government was ordering them to fight, and they were loyal to the government in power, which is not unusual or evil in itself.

    But this post caused me to reflect on the Confederacy and the various messages that can be communicated when remembering that short lived nation.
    Bottom line: The war was illegal- not even rising to the level of justification the Revolutionary War (which itself was probably illegal and unjustified) enjoyed.

    The practice of slavery is and was completely abhorent and is itself evidence of the extreme nature of depraved humanity. Despite the arguments that can be made for the flag, it stands for a sinful caste system that perverted the dignity of humans beings by reducing their value to that of mere chattle.
    That is the lasting legacy of the Confederacy.

    To peel back the onion even further, it seems that these Confederate memorials are often championed by middle to lower class white males of the fringe of society, who, with somber pagentry, display a sort of pitiful longing for the peculiar norms of that bygone era. These men seem to revel in the establishment opposition they encounter in their activities, and, thereby, in a sense, are able to identify with their fallen ancestors and feel a little bit rebellious and little more significant.

    A perfect example of this is the photo on the eastlandspin front page where a bunch of men are raising a confedrate flag while dressed up as civil war soldiers.
    Sounds to me like the "caste system" is still alive and well in your thinking-you mention middle to lower class males,so I asume there are upper classes also.
    I don't know any Civil War reinactors personally,but I think they would be very surprised to see themselves described in the terms you have posted here.Does you line of thinking include Revoluntionary War reinactors also?

  46. #46
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by Tess View Post
    Sounds to me like the "caste system" is still alive and well in your thinking-you mention middle to lower class males,so I asume there are upper classes also.
    I don't know any Civil War reinactors personally,but I think they would be very surprised to see themselves described in the terms you have posted here.Does you line of thinking include Revoluntionary War reinactors also?
    In my opinion, they are folks who have an interest in history and they've usually studied that history, too!

  47. #47
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Is anyone placing forty eight star flags on the graves of WWII vets?
    Secretary,
    Harper Valley PTA

  48. #48
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    I also had many relatives that fought for the Confederacy. None that fought for the Union. Some that fought and died at the Alamo and some with Sam Houston. I have a diary of my uncle that was at the Battle of Appomadox, which details the horrible treatment of the soldiers after the surrender. So I personally wouldn't like to see a US flag on their graves either. But they do fly the flag and that is okay. Anytime relatives are killed their are strong feelings. I personally believe those feelings still exist today, although not as strong on both sides. I can see no problem with putting confederate flags on the soldiers graves. It is a part of the South's history. The fight was over industry and labor, not freedom of the slaves. That was a side effect. There is no difference in the way the slaves were treated than today's Chinese worker. Or the way most indentured servants were treated. These individuals were given to an industry to provide labor. In return for their labor, they were given room and board. They were property of the industrial unit. Some were treated well and some were beaten and even in today's China - killed. This happens over and over throughout history - Egyptians, Romans, Greeks... We in the United States are lucky, we have laws to protect our workforce. But most laborers of the world are not so lucky. If you think about it, we are all bias to some degree. If someone that you didn't know just walked up to your house and knocked on the door and said he had something for you, we want to think that as people would treat each person the same. But would we. I bet if a middle aged guy, dressed in a suit, who drove up in a limo and got out with 3 other guys dressed in suits and said he had something for you, would be greeted much nicer than a young man, dressed in jeans with their underwear showing and a shirt hanging down to his knees, gets out of a 1982 cadillac, with 3 of his friends, dressed the same. It doesn't matter if they are black or white. It's called social conditioning. None of us truly know what is right or what is wrong. I believe we each just try to do the best that we can... There is no harm in that... So if these guys have a club that wants to show respect to their history, I can't call that hate.

    Reguardless of what I just said... I think BB just want to ride her scooter and enjoy the day! Maybe check out the flowers... Not to cause a Spin Civil War! Let it goooo...
    Life is a banquet and most poor suckers are starving to death!

  49. #49
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    You are so right ptlj41 about riding for pleasure. Now I plan to enjoy the history as we make these cemeteries today. Bet we learn more than we did in school about the war. I have been doing genealogy for years and this fits right in.

  50. #50
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by MiraculousMutha View Post
    Is anyone placing forty eight star flags on the graves of WWII vets?
    If someone is, I will make that ride also. I put flags on my families graves that are vets.

  51. #51
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by MiraculousMutha View Post
    Is anyone placing forty eight star flags on the graves of WWII vets?
    The WWII vets and the Vietnam vets both fought under the same United States government. To put a U.S. flag with 50 stars on it on a WWII grave would not be putting the flag of a government they fought against.

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by Tess View Post
    Sounds to me like the "caste system" is still alive and well in your thinking-you mention middle to lower class males,so I asume there are upper classes also.
    I don't know any Civil War reinactors personally,but I think they would be very surprised to see themselves described in the terms you have posted here.Does you line of thinking include Revoluntionary War reinactors also?
    I have a female friend who attends all sorts of reinactments - she is neither male, white or lower class. She simply has a love and passion for our American history - the good, the bad and the ugly of it all. It is afterall -- what makes us the nation that we are today.

  53. #53
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    The fight was about control and State's Rights, too. The main interest in the North was to take away the power that they felt the plantation owners in the South had. The demand for abolition of slavery came not from those who found it morally wrong but from white working-class men who did not want slaves as rivals for their jobs. The majority of the citizens in the South did not own slaves but many fought for the South because they believed in State's Rights.

  54. #54
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleBritches View Post
    I have a female friend who attends all sorts of reinactments - she is neither male, white or lower class. She simply has a love and passion for our American history - the good, the bad and the ugly of it all. It is afterall -- what makes us the nation that we are today.
    Now that is a good way to be.

  55. #55
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Even though it was back in the 50's when I took the three hour course on the Civil War, I can almost quote backwards, forwards, and in dreams the Seven Causes of the Civil War...most of you know them all--States Rights, Election of Lincoln, Compromise of 1850; [I]Uncle Tom's Cabin;[I] Compromise of 1820; slavery; (heck! what's # 7)...Dred Scott?
    If the SOC were putting out the flag as shone on the Spin that would be better accepted but to put out the Battle Flag is still to me a hate flag against Blacks...

  56. #56
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by june View Post
    ...the Battle Flag is still to me a hate flag against Blacks...
    That is what it means to most people.
    I could see putting them on the grave of someone who died in the war, but the deceased who may have lived another forty years as an American under the American flag might not appreciate the gesture.

  57. #57

    Re: Confederate Flags

    MiraculousMutha makes a great point.
    I often find myself thinking of moments in history as if all the participants were frozen in that one moment. It is neat to think that a human could have experienced the texas war for independence and the civil war - it is almost hard to know how they felt about all the events they experienced.

  58. #58
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by MiraculousMutha View Post
    That is what it means to most people.
    I could see putting them on the grave of someone who died in the war, but the deceased who may have lived another forty years as an American under the American flag might not appreciate the gesture.
    When someone puts their lives on the line for a cause, I wouldn't think they would generally decide later it was a stupid thing to do. I have a feeling that even though they may have became loyal citizens of the U.S., they would die proud they had been confederate soldiers.

    The national flag may have become that same racist symbol as the battle flag had it not had the design flaw of being too easily confused with the Union flag. Since both flags, at that time, represented the exact same government and principles, I wouldn't think it would matter which one was flying over a soldier's grave.

    To me, it is the manner in which it is displayed that makes the difference in what someone is being perceived as saying. Displaying a rebel flag as part of your pick up truck decoration, your yard art, or window dressing, is perceived as a racist statement. I would never want to do something that would give that perception. The civil war has been over a long time, and the south lost. We are U.S. and Texas citizens and I'm durn proud of it. Those are the flags I display.

  59. #59
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    I have no problem with the stars and bars. Many of my family member fought for our states rights bravely and honorably.

    I think it is a shame that because of the actions of those in the years following the civil war...that the flag should be put away and the history of those soldiers ignored.

    We should not allow the actions of evil people...change what a flag stood for originally.

    I have seen people take our American flag and use it in evil ways...that doesn't change what the flag was created for...what it stands for...
    Profit" is a dirty word only to the leeches of the world. They want it seen as evil, so they can more easily snatch what they did not earn." -Victor

  60. #60
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    As for flying other flags...my father in law flies an Italian flag under his Texas flag in his yard. He is a Texan first...but he is proud of his Italian heritage and race...and I see nothing wrong with that.

    I wouldn't have a problem with someone flying a Texas flag and a Mexican flag...or what ever country their ethnic background comes from.

    Now if someone was flying a Mexican flag...as disrespect to Texas...then that is a different situation.

  61. #61
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Mally View Post
    I have no problem with the stars and bars. Many of my family member fought for our states rights bravely and honorably.

    I think it is a shame that because of the actions of those in the years following the civil war...that the flag should be put away and the history of those soldiers ignored.

    We should not allow the actions of evil people...change what a flag stood for originally.

    I have seen people take our American flag and use it in evil ways...that doesn't change what the flag was created for...what it stands for...
    The confederate battle flag is not the stars and bars. Stars & bars = first national confederate flag

  62. #62
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    The confederate battle flag then....the Southern Cross.

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    Re: Confederate Flags


  64. #64
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    This the Stars and Bars...the first official Confederate flag


  65. #65
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Naval Jack....more commonly known as the "Rebel Flag"



  66. #66
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    As honorable and noble as they thought their cause may have been, the rebel flag has become a symbol of hatred and racism. Take a look at the swastika, the symbol used by the Nazis when they murdered millions of Jews.
    The swastika originally was used over 3,000 years ago to symbolize life, sun, power, strength, and good luck. The Nazis perverted that good luck symbol, making it mean death and hate.

    The same has happened with the Confederate flag. It originally symbolized freedom of a nation, but it has been perverted too.

    You won't catch me flying it.
    Life is like an analogy.

  67. #67
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Me either, Who.

  68. #68
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by whocares View Post
    ...You won't catch me flying it.
    If I had a Stars and Bars flag, you might catch me flying it.

  69. #69
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    I made a choice today to ride with the men and women who put flags out on the graves of those who served in the Civil War on the side of the Confederacy. I chose today this to honor my great, great, (and so on), Grandfather Waltch who died at Vickburg. I also did it for his son, who was captured and spent the winter inside a Union Prison Camp.

    I do not advocate all the reasons they went to war. I am not a racist, I do not hang out with hate groups and I believe slavery is without a doubt one of the most horrible crimes that can be committed against any person, race or ethnic group on the planet. (Please not that I am Scottish and Irish and my people have been and continue to be enslaved by the British to this very day.) I do respect that they had a right to fight for what they believed was good reason.

    Today's ride was very interesting, and I enjoyed talking with the people who I made my company this day. No one preached hate to me, not that it would have done any good. If there was a hidden agenda, it was well hidden from me.

    I am sorry that anyone's prejudice kept them from spending the day learning about the many burial sights in our county and the history behind them-J
    "The enclosed comments do not reflect the opinions of the staff, owners or advertisiers of any business establishment JoHo works for, has worked for, will work for or is considering working for, or has ever been considered as potentitally working for..."

  70. #70
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Great post JoHo!!!

  71. #71

    Re: Confederate Flags

    SOC is not a racist group !!!!!! As many of you know my family is mixed race and the local members that I know of the SOC have never shown anything but respect to myself and my family. While some hate groups have adopted the Conf battle flag as their banner, but many other hate groups have adopted the stars and stipes as theres. We must remember that the victors right history, we should honor our southern forefathers that fought for our rights. The war was fought over states rights, not slavery!
    And interesting thing is that many blacks fought for the south in the war. Surprise!!! During reunions of both north and south soilders, blacks that fought for both sides would come. There were large communal tents that housed the veterans during these reunions. The north camp segrated the blacks into seperat tents, the south did not. Something that the poli correct crowd wont put into the history books. Unfortunaly what most people know about the war of northern aggression is what they have learned in the publicfool system

  72. #72
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Mally - Thanks for posting pictures of the Naval Jack/Rebel flag, Confederate Battle flag (I often refer to those two flags as 'St Andrews Cross') and the Stars and Bars.

    Georgia made the Confederate Batttle flag a major part of their state flag over fifty years ago in response to the early efforts of our national government to push voting rights and integration. For me, the message sent was very clear.

    In 2001, Governor Roy Barnes led a movement to change the state flag, dropping the banner with the Confederate Battle flag on it for a royal blue flag with the state seal in gold in the center. It was called the 'Barnes' flag. I was very proud to hoist that flag up my pole just beneath Old Glory.

    Those who favored the Confederate Battle flag promptly voted Barnes out of office, and voted Sonny Perdue in based on his promise to hold a statewide referendum on the flag. Perdue, ever the consumate politician, managed to hold the referendum, but the only choices made available were the 'Barnes' flag and a newer design which is virtually a duplicate of the first flag of the Confereracy - the Stars and Bars.

    Of course the Stars and Bars won in a landslide. And that is the flag one sees in front of every school and public building in Georgia. It represents the Confederacy, but without the baggage of the long-misused Confederate Battle flag.

    But it is not on my flagpole. As soon as the Stars and Bars won the referendum, I made the rounds of local stores and managed to find eight of the Barnes flags - the gold state seal on a beautiful royal blue background. And that is the flag I have proudly continued to fly just beneath Old Glory for six years now. Yes, you might say I am a maverick.

  73. #73
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by lightonthehill View Post
    ....Yes, you might say I am a maverick.
    We MIGHT even say "you're a Rebel".

  74. #74
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    My loyalties are in this order....God...Family...Texas...The South...The US.
    I am a Texan before I am a US citizen.

  75. #75
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    My loyalties are as follows:

    1. God, (I admit many times I forget that He should be my main priority...I try to control situations and should let go and let God.)

    2. Family (God truly blessed me in this department!)

    3. Friends (although I tend to act/speak before I think, I really, truly do care about my friends)

    4. I love Texas and will always be a Texan, but I think I put more of an emphasis on being an American...one nation under God. It's a tough question, or tie maybe???

  76. #76
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Mally View Post
    My loyalties are in this order....God...Family...Texas...The South...The US.
    I am a Texan before I am a US citizen.
    Same order in which my loyalties are aligned.

  77. #77
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    So you are saying that if Governor Rick Perry suddenly announced that Texas is seceding from the United States, you would support that idea?

    God, Family, United States of America, Texas, in that order.

  78. #78
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by whocares View Post
    So you are saying that if Governor Rick Perry suddenly announced that Texas is seceding from the United States, you would support that idea?

    God, Family, United States of America, Texas, in that order.
    Well, we're not talkin bout Rick Perry, we're talkin bout Texas and Rick Perry ain't Texas!

    I live in the state of Texas. I'm more concerned about policies that adversely affect our state than I am about policies that adversely affect any other state. I would oppose secession but, if Texas were to secede, I don't think I could bring myself to join a fight to kill fellow Texans.

  79. #79
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    I am a Texan...before I am a US Citizen. If Texas had remained its own country...it would not have hurt my feelings. Texas has my first love....not to say I don't love the US...just that Texas has my heart first.

  80. #80
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by Gearldean View Post
    Well, we're not talkin bout Rick Perry, we're talkin bout Texas and Rick Perry ain't Texas!

    I live in the state of Texas. I'm more concerned about policies that adversely affect our state than I am about policies that adversely affect any other state. I would oppose secession but, if Texas were to secede, I don't think I could bring myself to join a fight to kill fellow Texans.
    Yeah, great Texans like Rick Perry, Clayton Williams, Tom DeLay, Madeline Murray O'Hair, and the like. Or would you rather kill Americans instead?

  81. #81
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by whocares View Post
    Yeah, great Texans like Rick Perry, Clayton Williams, Tom DeLay, Madeline Murray O'Hair, and the like. Or would you rather kill Americans instead?
    Well, dang, who! Why pull up the dregs of Texas Society and mention them in the same sentence with "great"? Why not mention folks like Barbara Jordon, Tommy Franks, Audie Murphy?

    I druther not kill nobuddy but sometimes we don't get our druthers.

  82. #82
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    LIGHTONTHEHILL,
    I'm just trying to learn the different perceptions of different states on feelings about the Civil War-I am NOT trying to start something-I just want to learn something.Georgia and Texas (the land and people)were a million miles apart in what they experienced during this war.Do the people in Georgia say"Civil War" or might they use the term"war of Northern Aggresion" or another term?This is something I've picked up from books and have no idea if it's true or not-I would love to know.Also,are there still bad feelings about the destruction Georgia suffered(ie Sherman's march and other things)If you don't feel inclined to give us a history lesson,I will understand-I may be out of line just asking.If so,I apoligise

  83. #83
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Texas was still fighting and winning....after the rest of the states gave up.

  84. #84
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Tess - I consider myself to be a Tar Heel (North Carolinian), not a Georgian. I have lived in many states, but longer in Georgia than in any other. Every state has good points and bad points. Every state has folks they can be proud of, and folks they don't care to mention.

    For me, Georgia has almost always been a disappointment. Atlanta could be a great city; a leader. Instead, despite many wonderful advantages like museums, live theater, professional sports teams, hosting the Olympics, the largest aquarium on earth, a world-class zoo, etc, etc, it has one of the worst crime rates, is one of the worst managed, has absolutely horrible traffic, has trash everywhere, and has the poorest planning of any city with which I am familiar.

    Once one strays outside the Atlanta metro area, the war of northern agression is still raging. Some northerners would be amazed by how many rural homes in rural Georgia have the Confederate battle flag prominently displayed, both on home and vehicles. If put to a vote in rural areas, the confederate battle flag would become the official state flag forever.

    There has been a running argument in the Atlanta paper the past few weeks as to whether Sherman was much worse than bin Laden, or whether his cruelty might actually have shortened the war and saved lives.

    But the 'tone' I find in the rural areas of Georgia that disappoints me most is how racial relations have moved so slowly. So slowly that here in the third millenium, it is national news when the senior prom in a Georgia high school becomes integrated.

    So slowly that many whites will send their children to an expensive church-operated school rather than allow them to attend public schools with Blacks, even in areas where the public schools are rated as good.

    So slowly that Hispanics are the new 'scum' in rural areas. They are often robbed (they usually have no bank accounts, so have money on them), are sometimes beaten, and several have been killed in what seem to be 'hate' crimes.

    I do see a little progress, in that some poorer whites - the group usually most anti-mixing in Georgia - seem to have accepted that equality is going to come, and appear to be rather resigned to making the adjustment.

    The biggest change of all is in the Atlanta suburbs. The county I live in is a good example. In 1970, this county was not in the Atlanta metro area. It was very rural, and about 5% black. The population was around 20,000.

    Now, this county is part of the Atlanta metro area, has over 100,000 citizens, has the highest per-capita income in the state, has the highest-rated school system in the state, and is around 20% Black.

    But it is the status of that Black population that is interesting. Not counting several dignitaries such as Evander Holifield, who lives about four miles from me on a several hundred acre estate with two mansions with forty-some rooms each, or Bill Cosby's Mother, or several big rap stars, the 'non-famous' Blacks in this county live in homes that probably average around $500,000 each in value. There is a large area just a few miles north of my home where almost every citizen is Black, and where the average home is HUGE, and costs around $700,000.

    By contrast, probably 95% of the oldest and smallest homes in the county, homes that would be valued below $200,000, are occupied by whites.

    Of course there is the largest category including around 50% of the homes in the county that average around $300,000 in value, and which are probably split between Blacks and whites along the same percentage as the total percentage of each in the county.

    This county is sort of a melting pot in that we have synagogues, mosques, temples, etc, and have an Asian contingent as well. I expect the 2010 census to show our Black population has increased to around 30%. Two of the three homes built across the street from me were purchased by Blacks and one by whites.

    Law enforcement here, unlike Atlanta, is very professional and very strict. Our county has a wide reputation for snaring internet predators and tracking down perps, even to Eurpope and the Carribbean, and bringing them back for long prison terms.

    But traffic is getting very bad here, and seven acres is too much for us to be grooming into our declining years, so we feel we have to move somewhere that requires little outside maintenance. probably well north of Atlanta, but close enough that we can see our beautiful grandaughters more often.

    But I stray.

    In answer to your question:

    'Fergit Hell!'

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    After living in several big cities, Houston, San Diego, and Fort Worth, I found it very distrubing to hear people in this small community to use the Ni*** word when referring to blacks. I think the community is changing and there is more acceptance of minorities in the area.

    However, there is a teenager in the area that feels it is necessary on Friday or Saturday nights to mount the Confederte Flag in his big tired truck and drive through Sonic and down main street whooping and hollaring. It's quite comical.

  86. #86
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    I feel like you Biker JJ. I cringe when I hear that term used.

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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by lightonthehill View Post
    ...But the 'tone' I find in the rural areas of Georgia that disappoints me most is how racial relations have moved so slowly. So slowly that here in the third millenium, it is national news when the senior prom in a Georgia high school becomes integrated...

    I was stationed in Georgia, right outside of Augusta. A friend and I decided to go into town for a Saturday. We were both very young, and the Army was the first time we had been away from home. Claude was from Alaska, and the cutest freckled face kid you ever saw. He and I planned to go shopping for just stuff we needed, eat lunch, catch a movie, then head on back to post before dark.
    We got off the bus and had not gone a block before a group of men sitting in front of drug store called me a"N" lover. Claude turned me around and told me we had to go back to the post right now. I followed him back to the bus stop, waited an hour in the hot sun for the next bus and we went back to the barracks.
    It never occured to either one of us that because his skin was about three shades browner than mine, there would be trouble. We were just kids out for a fun day in the city. He was smart enought to know we were in a dangerous situation before I did, and we avoided an ugly situation.
    I have never forgotten how I felt that day, or the look on my friend's face. It was a painful experience for both of us. I guess I was supposed to run away, clutching my purse and my virtue when Claude asked me to go to town with him that day, but somehow, that did not occur to me at the time.
    I was more interested in spending the day with a fellow solider, and eating a meal that was not served on a tray.
    I am sad that Georgia has not changed much since the early 70's, but not surprised...

  88. #88
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Mally View Post
    My loyalties are in this order....God...Family...Texas...The South...The US.
    I am a Texan before I am a US citizen.
    I musta missed this one earlier. Mine would be in that same order.

  89. #89
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    Re: Confederate Flags

    LIGHTONTHE HILL
    Thanks for answering my question-does sound like Georgia(or at least parts of it) hasn't forgotten the war.
    I kinda think though,that when you describe Atlanta,the same might be said of any large city most anywhere-some even smaller places.Thanks

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